Sigh - more designer breeds

After many decades of trying to make sense of these things, I have come to the following conclusions, which I plan to clutch to my bosom to my dying day:

  1. The reason people gravitated to the ‘designer dogs’ is because of the failure of closed stud book breeding to produce reliably genetically healthy dogs, the failure of selection for conformation shows to produce unexaggerated normal dogs, and the failure of anyone to breed for the one thing that matters above all else to the general public, which is a good safe, friendly temperament. The promise, whether fulfilled or not, of these overhyped crossbreds, is that they will be genetically safer than the insanely inbred AKC breeds (the science supports this, at least in the case of damaging mutations embedded in any given AKC breed crossed with a totally different one). And people LIKE FLUFFY, okay? I don’t, but everyone else does. That’s the main reason for the doodle part, as far as I can tell.

  2. The reason breeders of registered AKC breeds hate the popularity of any other idea of breeding is mysterious. Who the hell cares? It’s not like those registered breeds are any better (see #1). And they’re often worse. But it’s human nature to get irrationally self-righteous over differences only the in-group cares about.

The public cachet of a “purebred” “registered” dog is essentially over. It was a Victorian conceit in which the burgeoning middle class could pretend to the kind of luxury animal breeding previously only available to the wealthy, which reached its height of popularity and respect around the mid-twentieth century. The AKC stopped publishing their annual registration statistics when every year was less than the year before, despite ever-greater numbers of people buying dogs.

I like real working dogs of all kinds, stockdogs in particular. Some of them have their own registries and some don’t give a damn about registries. The AKC offers working dog breeders nothing they can’t get elsewhere. Same with doodle cross breeders. So if the AKC dwindles to just another niche group like the Shape Note Singers of America, or the Native Iris Society, I’m fine with that, myself.

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“Ignorant” is a lot over the top for not knowing every specific breed, don’t you think? I’m pretty sure every last one of us can claim that sort of ignorance.

Am I delighted when someone confuses my Maine Coons for NFCs or Ragdolls, or calls my marathon carriage or presentation vehicle a “cart”?

No, I’m not, but I don’t think of them in the uglier connotation of “ignorant”

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Ugh! Last year they had a super cute coonhound with no back legs. I wish they used him again…

If you’re going to be offended by people not recognizing your breed, don’t pick an unusual breed! That’s like people who dye their hair purple, have a ton of tats and piercings being offended that people stare at them. Smile and educate!

I’m not sure what this is referring to.

If you are referring to my post, I’m not sure you understand. I’m not mad if someone thinks my CCR is a Doodle. I’m concerned that backyard breeders who aren’t really educated about canine health breed look-alike dogs that can have problems. Even worse, they charge thousands for a dog from unproven bloodlines.

FYI, I do educate and people are thrilled to meet such a beautiful breed they have never seen before or knew existed.

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No, not directed at you specifically! More at the guy with wire haired vizlas. I have German Shepherds and while they are never mistaken for another breed, I am constantly educating about the difficulty of finding a good one. When I see someone with a new designer puppy, I coo and recommend a good puppy class.

The reason people gravitated to the ‘designer dogs’ is because of the failure of closed stud book breeding to produce reliably genetically healthy dogs.

That’s just total BS. The doodle crosses are not, and never were intended to be genetically superior. The initial goal was a hypoallergenic dog. That’s as far as the “genetic” goals went.

And people LIKE FLUFFY, okay? I don’t, but everyone else does. That’s the main reason for the doodle part, as far as I can tell.

This is the answer. And “cutesy”.

  • The reason breeders of registered AKC breeds hate the popularity of any other idea of breeding is mysterious. Who the hell cares? It’s not like those registered breeds are any better (see #1). And they’re often worse. But it’s human nature to get irrationally self-righteous over differences only the in-group cares about.

No, it’s because they are typically cross-bred without purpose, selection or testing.

(And yet, these “breeders” still charge big bucks for them, which is astounding that the do, and that people actually pay it.)

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I didn’t read that as he was offended by people not recognizing the breed, but annoyed because they assumed it was a “doodle” of some kind, rather than a breed they were unfamiliar with.

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Thoughts on people who breed specifically for things like flyball? I personally don’t have an issue with it, provided there’s a good end for puppies who decide they don’t like flyball or aren’t quite championship caliber. There are years-long waiting lists for litters.

“Ignorant of” (or about) is not (a) perjorative, I am ignorant of/about quite a few things; the list is long! :smile: If it matters to me to educate myself about these things, I do so – but I never claim not to be ignorant about things I’m unfamiliar with. If I want to become more knowledgeable, I consult people who know more than I do, or I do research. (I’m a trainer, but recently got into showing – and since this is new to me, I took handling classes, spent a lot of time researching and contacting mentors, and getting information and help from experienced breeders/handlers - as well as watching lots of videos online of show handling. I soaked up every bit of knowledge I could before getting into the ring with my dog. As a result, I am now less “ignorant” of show handling protocols, acquired the necessary skills, and was actually very comfortable handling my dog at her very first bench show.)

If, OTOH, I were to refer to someone as “ignorant”, now that would be insulting.

As another poster said, the guy in question wasn’t insulted by the comparison, but more irked because people didn’t ask first, but simply “assumed” his dogs were Doodles because they were orange and fluffy.

There’s nothing wrong with asking if you don’t know! I appreciate when people ask about my dogs (and I’m always gracious about it, giving them a brief explanation if they’re curious.)

People asking questions about breeds they’re unfamiliar with this is perfectly reasonable - and is how you acquire knowledge. I feel like everyone who owns an unusual dog should be a breed ambassador.

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Totally understand what you are saying, but it did read a bit harsh to me. But that’s probably me!

Maybe there should be a better word!

“Unknowing”? “Unknowlegeable”? (Not a word), but my vocabulary seems to shrink with age as my brain does :smile:

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LOL I think your first instinct was dead on: “Uninformed”

Yes - that was my first choice wasn’t it?

ETA, there are people who do not want to be “informed “, which was probably why I used ignorant. My pet peeve is people who don’t (won’t) do research, get help, take the time to learn or inform themselves, but then again as a trainer I have encountered countless people who go into dog ownership blissfully ignorant of pretty much everything they need to know, and don’t feel the need to educate themselves! :disappointed:

The dog is always the one who suffers because of this, obviously.

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The doodles may not have been marketed that way, but believe me, the general public has noticed how sickly and deformed so many AKC breeds have become. I have had quite a few non-doggists tell me that getting away from that bad news was a motivator. You are wrong that doodle breeders didn’t pick up on that. Same with other crossbred breeders. I have a rancher friend who makes decent money with her Aussie x corgi crosses, selling to the pet trade. She’s not a dog factory, her breeding dogs are pets and she does a couple litters a year. She also sells lambs, kids, calves, quail, pigs, turkeys … and for her it’s much the same thing. You take care of your breeding animals and sell their offspring at a fair price. At one time I would have been horrified, but now … I don’t see that she is doing anything worse than what I’ve seen many Reputable Breeders do, and actually a lot better than many. She wouldn’t breed a dog with a poor temperament (that could be lied about) or a congenital problem (that could be corrected with surgery and then hand-waved away). Yeah, I am cynical now. If someone is breeding nice sound dogs that do well as cute pets, I don’t see what skin it is off anybody else’s butt. No matter what they charge.

Somebody breeding backwoods but yes, registered, Aussies with zero health clearances near me was asking $3000 a pup, just a couple months ago. Hey, they’re registered! They aren’t those foul Mini Aussies either!

In the end, they’re all just dogs. Good dogs, bad dogs. A piece of paper is meaningless to me.

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Ironically in light of the fact that so many of the “mutts” being discussed in this thread are doodles, the single most important thing that Poodle breeders–the kind who show in conformation shows–breed for is great temperament. It is and always has been a defining characteristic of the breed.

This is what the breed standard says about temperament:
“Temperament: Carrying himself proudly, very active, intelligent, the Poodle has about him an
air of distinction and dignity peculiar to himself. Major fault: shyness or sharpness.”

A Poodle with a bad temperament cannot be shown (the judge will send it out of the ring). Even a Poodle who’s unhappy on the day, for whatever reason, will not be pinned.

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While poodle breeders may or may not select for temperament, the notion that there is some real way to judge the temperament of a dog trotting around a ring on a tight string for five minutes, all the time anxious to pose so they can get a piece of baked liver, is a highly debatable one. And as for what it might say in the standard, that’s just high minded boiler plate. Most of the breed standards have some such statement in them. The fact is, dogs that win conformation shows must have a certain kind of temperament – the kind that shows off gaily for a treat, oblivious of all else that might be going on. Dogs that resent having their balls squeezed by a total stranger, or are overwhelmed by hundreds of dogs swirling around, don’t win anything. That goes for every breed. Nothing else is actually important, temperament-wise.

Have I said I’m cynical yet?

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“The general public has noticed how sickly and deformed so many AKC breeds have become.”

Like which ones? (I mean, I know what you’ll say – English Bulldogs and GSDs.) Because the “general public” watches one dog show on TV once a year and considers themselves experts on breed type and purebred dogs. (“I grew up with GSDs and they didn’t look like that” and “They all must have hip problems because they look crippled”).

(The fact that the “general public” can’t explain why a GSD looks like it does just makes it worse (it’s the hocks, not the hips), but whatever.

AKC recognizes 197 breeds, many of which have hardly changed in centuries.

So. Sorry but “the general public” doesn’t actually notice must of anything about purebred dogs. You can’t watch the National Dog Show after a few drinks at Thanksgiving and actually be taken seriously as a purebred dog expert.

I do believe that cross bred breeders have picked up on the fact that the general public is relatively ignorant about dogs and dog breeding. And they are definitely using it to their advantage to make money.

Does your friend conduct health testing on her dogs? I am not entirely against pet breeders, but I do not condone breeding without selection for specific traits, or routine health testing prior to breeding - even for mixed breeds. So she wouldn’t breed a dog with a congenital problem - but does she test so she knows if one exists?

As for backwoods Aussies for $3K? People are stupid. What else can I say?

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Have you ever been to a dog show? Or do you know anyone that shows dogs?

I’m serious because you are very cynical - so are you the “I’ve been there and back, showed for 20 years and was an officer in my breed parent club” cynic, or are you the “they are all dogs and these dog show beauty contests don’t matter” kind of cynic? Because I can relate to the first, but not the 2nd.

I don’t enter Westminster because at most, it will draw about 20 dogs in my breed. Our breed national specialty show - which is in friggin Arkansas, EVERY year - will have over 80-100 entries in the Best of Breed class alone. And we’re a small breed club, so some of the bigger clubs have hundreds of entries. From breeders all around the country, who travel to random, uninteresting places to show off their breeding programs to their peers. Not on the green carpet, or on TV, and no announcer or celebrities.

This is what purebred dogs are about - the breed standard, the purpose of the breed, the health research, the other titles (field trial, lure course, hunt test, earth dog, etc.) and the continued improvement and preservation of the breed.

Sure - you may disagree about some breeds. Does the world need a lapdog built like a “little lion” like a Pekingese? Maybe not. But - in general - purebred breeders and fanciers are not out ruining dog breeds for a $3 ribbon.

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