Oh God yes, I’ve been to dog shows. And I’ve hung around purebred breeders all my life, and bred a litter or two, and immersed myself in the world of The Fancy. I don’t show, because even at my most invested, I was dubious about the whole thing at the same time. And also, due to my personality, I get nothing whatsoever out of competitions. I just don’t.
In general, no one, at all, anywhere, is ruining a breed for a ribbon or any other reason. The system is what ruins breeds, not individuals. The system that those individuals have invested their whole identity, their heart and soul in.
The reason I am cynical is that I am very good at seeing big pictures, whole systems, causes and effects. This gift is about as welcome as a punchbowl turd to virtually everyone. People don’t want to see the big patterns. They don’t want to ask questions that could disturb their enjoyment of their best fun activities, much less upset their world view. I’ve been watching the Dog World for sixty years, inside and outside. I’ve been a dog trainer, I’ve competed with dogs (just not in conformation), I’ve done all kindsa crap with dogs. I’m not an expert in anything. Just a watcher, these days.
Yes, the general public is as ignorant about dogs as the day is long. We agree there.
I don’t really have “show dogs”. But I do show my dogs to prove their breeding program, and certainly before they are bred. I am active in our regional breed club and our national breed club and have put other titles on my dogs, and support that as much as conformation. I don’t have the time to hunt test or field trial my dogs now; but hopefully when I retire I will have more time. I am not interested in sending them away for half a year to go trial with a trainer instead of me.
I think it’s great that you believe you’re good at seeing big pictures but other “people” don’t want to see them. LOL. I’m sure there aren’t any other people involved in purebred dogs that can see beyond their own breeding programs.
Still curious which breeds are the “sickly and deformed” ones?
Why?..why cross an Aussie with a corgi? I am a small Aussie breeder, and have owned corgis. If someone wants a corgi, get a corgi. If someone wants an Aussie get an Aussie. I don’t see how either of these herding dog breeds benefits the other: short legged, long backed merles perhaps? Blue eyes? Or maybe a dog that inherits invertebrate disc disease? Or hey, two breeds that can have epilepsy and degenerative myelopathy…
I don’t know of a reputable Aussie breeder that breeds for bad temperament. But there certainly are plenty of poor temperament Aussie dogs out there but they don’t come from the good breeders. They come from people just interested in making a buck. No health testing, no genetic testing and no OFAs. As for congenital, I don’t know that hip and elbow abnormalities can be corrected with surgery or neurological defects, or skeletal defects.
You paint a broad brush which isn’t correct. Yes there are plenty of poorly bred AKC puppies of various breeds, just as there are plenty of poorly bred crossbred dogs. My parents had a doodle and that dog was a walking vet bill. Only made it to age 7.
Registered with who?..AKC or ASDR or ASCA? ASDR will take basically any dog. AKC, another easy to register association with no genetic testing required. ASCA, much more difficult: because they require DNA verification, genetic health testing. As a breeder I take the time to educate potential buyers, to explain why my dogs are DNA verified, genetically tested, and OFA’d. I had a lovely blue girl that passed the genetic tests with flying colors, including MDR-1, Excellent on hips, but didn’t pass OFA elbows. Immediately had her spade.
No I don’t charge $3,000 for my pups. For me raising a litter isn’t about the money. It’s about raising healthy, happy, well adjusted Aussies and matching them with the right person or family,
This flako-Aussie breeder near me registered with some organization I’d never heard of, which is apparently mainly a refuge for mini Aussie breeders. Not confidence-inspiring.
You may not know Aussie breeders who “breed for bad temperament” (no one does this, they just don’t breed for good temperament). But I’ve known – and owned – Aussies that were very atypical for the breed, one was the kind of dog who is actually dangerous. And I have met others. ALL from Reputable Breeders ™, all of whom produced other similar dogs. And I will confidently tell you that not one of those breeders would say that they bred a dog with a bad temperament. Instead they will blame the problem on the way the pup was raised when it left them. I raise all my pups the same way, and yet they all turn out different from each other. Weird, you’d think genetics was involved or something.
I used to think that a Reputable Breeder like that was some kind of anomaly. No. They are not. They all imagine they own the moral high ground, though.
As for the breeds I have heard bemoaned by lay dog owners who found their beloved purebred pets to be a money hole and a heartache:
Bearded Collie, Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, Sheltie, GSD (not for their ‘hips’, for all the other things they are prey to), Aussie, Border Collie, Dalmatian, Miniature Poodle … and these are only the people I know personally. Cursory research reveals so many more. I’m not talking about things that are not breed-localized, but things that are so endemic to one breed that they often have that breed’s name. Scottie Cramp, Springer Rage, etc. This state of affairs is NOT something closed-stud-book breeders went out to produce. It is simply a byproduct of ever-increasing homozygosity coupled with 100% amateur breeders with little genetic expertise and no oversight. It is unavoidable, given the circumstances. To change it, breeding rules would have to change. That won’t happen. Instead, purebred breeders will lose market share, and buyers will go look for something else. Whether they find it is another question, of course.
The history of closed stud books started with livestock in the 19th century. It was a kind of marketing scam (Purebred Wonder Cows). Guess what? It was abandoned by livestock breeders long ago, except under special controlled circumstances, because of the very problems the dog world can’t bring itself to examine. Livestock has a much more rigorous set of breeding criteria – they have to do things like gain weight quickly at a specific age, be good mothers etc. Animals that fail these tests are immediately culled. Whole breeds that fail these tests are abandoned. They are money losers. Instead, livestock breeders make use of hybrid vigor along with any other breeding strategy that ups their production. They aren’t stuck in the 19th century the way dog breeders are. They can’t be. There’s a lot of other problems in the livestock industry but not the ones dog breeds have.
Breeds that are deformed are a different issue. In my own opinion, breeds that cannot breathe well, walk well, or mate naturally, are examples of purposeful deformation. Some of the most popular breeds are examples. That people love this kind of thing (doggists and the public alike) will always be a source of disgusted wonderment to me. But that is a side issue.
I was not commenting to you. The comment was made a doodle was chosen as the next cadbury “bunny” So the thought was that it will spark more people wanting them. Last year, they chose a two legged coonhound named Lt. Dan. I did not think it would drive people to run out an get one since people want perfect dogs. It was a cute story and a good way not to spark interest in breeds most people do not need.
i find it sad that there are purebred dogs/show dogs who are so “deformed” that they can no longer give birth, as a rule w/out help. I cringe even when hunting dog breeders talk about repeatedly breeding a female who can’t give birth on its own.
I find dogs who struggle to breath because of their facial structure disheartening and unhealthy for the breed.
I find dogs who are likely to have their brain grow to large for their skull horrifying.
As a horseperson, I cringe at the strung out hind end conformation of the GSD.
I find it disheartening when I want to buy a good farm dog who may be able to help herd cattle, but don’t necessarily want the high drive cattle dog, and so I’m thinking Aussie, only to speak w/ breeders who say their dogs really don’t have herding instincts anymore. Like, what’s the point.
I LOVE goldens but the goldens now don’t really hunt and have such a high cancer rate, that a 13 yr old golden is almost unheard of - let alone finding a hunting line one anymore. Our hunting bred goldens lived to 13, 13, and 12 respectively. They were the most awesome of dogs and don’t look at all like the show goldens. And they could hunt hunt hunt retrieve retrieve retrieve all day long. And still give a child a hug and a kiss at the end of the day.
So, I don’t necessarily find show dog breeding to be the end all be all of healthy dog breeding either,
I used to get comments from friends and family about how “weird” GSD’s look. So I’d take mine and stack him for show, and stand him regular. Same dog. It made them understand a bit better
What you want is a Working Aussie, not a Show Aussie. They exist, they are registered with ASCA, and although they share the same name and registry, they do not share much if any genetic material with the 90% of Aussies that are conformation-bred. More common west of the Rockies but they are all over. I’m out of that breed but if you tell me what state you are in I can give you names.
when I need another farm dog, I will look at collies and working aussies. My collie cross rescue dog, love her dearly, is much too shy about large animals to herd anything but she is still a good farm dog and wonderful with cats and children.
Which may be why the AKC no longer accepts Jack Russell Terriers but has changed that name to “Parson Russell Terrier” and “Russell Terrier” depending on some distinction only the AKC probably understands.
So much of a breed standard is about the dog’s appearance – height, weight, coat, color, ears, tail, etc.
And in many cases the dog’s appearance determines – or at least affects – its ability to perform the tasks for which it was developed.
No one is talking about “show dog breeding” though. We’re talking about breeding correct dogs - which means breeding to the standard for conformation but also for temperament and purpose.
Of course there are some breeds where the field/working and show lines have split - many of the heavily coated gun dogs, for example. If you are looking for a hunting dog to actually perform, you should probably not call last year’s Westminster winning Golden breeder. That dog might hunt, but it’s far more likely that it isn’t as good as another line that has been selected for hunting. But that doesn’t mean that a backyard breeder is going to provide a better hunting Golden Retriever because they don’t show them in conformation.
There are a lot of breeders that have actual working and conformationally correct dogs - herding, sporting, etc. You do have to put in a little work to find them, because they are not cranking them out month after month. It takes time and effort to put titles on dogs, and they are busy. But if you were actually looking for one, they can be found.
I don’t have any idea which breeds might have their “brain grow too large for their skull?” I don’t disagree that some of the brachycephalic breeds have been overdone, although that trait has been found for centuries. I do think that some breed clubs are making an effort to ensure that skull traits are carefully judged to make sure these traits don’t become more exaggerated.
“So deformed that they cannot give birth”…? Again, what? So…like bulldogs? Not sure what you mean about hunting dog breeders repeatedly breeding though. C-sections are routinely performed for many breeds but not because the bitch can’t deliver naturally - but more to ensure that the birth is safe - just like with humans. Breeding is not for the faint of heart - it doesn’t always go well. I know of someone that lost 8 of 11 puppies and nearly lost their bitch during delivery because of a uterine torsion. This bitch had successfully delivered before, but things don’t always go as planned. Some breeders prefer to have the vet on stand-by at the time of delivery.
As for GSD…they aren’t beasts of burden. The way they move is unique, but it’s not unhealthy by definition.
He would much rather do this than trot around a show ring. Even though he only has a Junior Hunter title, I have no doubt he could have achieved the Master Hunter title if I had either the time to work with him, or was willing to send him away. Field Champion is a different title and a different game; not sure he would have been able to get that title, and in my opinion, it’s not actually as correct for the breed anyway.
You aren’t talking to stock dog/working dog Aussie breeders. And I personally know several ASCA Aussie breeders that intentionally bring stock dog/working lines to their lines. Because you know what, Aussies are versatile, that is why there are Versatility titles in ASCA. A good Aussie can do more than one thing.
All 8 of my Aussies can herd, came out of the womb with the herding instinct. They are all from the same breeder. They have all been on fowl and sheep, two currently are my chicken wranglers. Three of my dogs have points in confirmation (one has a four point major) but they don’t enjoy the confirmation ring. I could send them off to be finished, but I’d rather they do what they love. They all go to water, my oldest is a dock diving dog (now retired) and three are very good retrievers in water (and on land). My youngest at 2, looks to be headed for agility.
Aussie Breeders who do not know their genetic lines to me are not Reputable Breeders. Period. Breeders whose outcrosses are not stock or working lines are not Reputable Breeders.
There are known genetic and temperamental issues in certain lines, lines that got popular, and I I wouldn’t touch those lines with a ten foot pole.
I am sorry you had such bad experiences with dogs from some Aussie breeders. And you certainly aren’t alone, it’s a problem for sure. And so are ignorant (not you) new owners who fall in love with the color or the look of an Aussie and are not prepared and are not prepared by the breeder they buy from for what they are taking on as a member of their family. That Aussies are now so popular is the worst thing that could happen to the breed.
And then there are the issues with puppy raising itself. I know a couple of “reputable breeders” that do little to no socialization, and de-sensitivity with their puppies. No enrichment at all. My pups are introduced to chickens at 7 weeks (separated by a fence of course). They watch the adult Aussie wranglers drive the chickens to their roost. They go on short little walks around the barn, get the smells of the horses. They have agility puppy tunnels to play in and balance boards. After their shots, they go to the office with me, they meet grandchildren of friends. They are raised in my home and get de-sensitized to blow dryer sounds, pots falling on the kitchen floor, vacuum cleaners. And through all of this, through each new stimulation or game I am assessing temperament, character and drive. And laughing a lot. Aussie pups with their intelligence and sense of humor never fail to make me laugh.
Unfortunately it takes a lot of time and effort to find a good breeder (not a “reputable breeder”).
Good breeders aren’t necessarily marketing geniuses, don’t have up to date websites, etc. That’s because in part they spend most of their time with their dogs, that’s their focus, not marketing and sales.
Reputable Breeder: someone who is active in competitions, is active in a breed club, does the standard health checks, and breeds no more than three litters a year. I’m pretty sure those are the parameters. Good breeders, though – I’m sure they exist, but my assessment is they make up a small percentage of the RB group. And honest breeders? Those are a small subset of the GBs.
I did not buy any of my disappointing Aussies from ignorant breeders. Rather, I experienced the extremely common if not ubiquitous problem of breeder denial. Never, never, never have I heard a breeder say anything critical about their own lines or their own dogs. Not once, in half a century. Not until they have already culled a dog or a line from their program – oh then they will mention how being a breeder means making hard decisions for the sake of the breed. But while they are selling the puppies, blessed silence on any potential problems.
In Aussies, for example, there are major lines which produce epilepsy on a regular basis, but when a friend of mine in the breed was trying to dig up just which dogs this was coming from, the denial was so thick you could hardly breathe. The only people who piped up were OWNERS. Not breeders. I think other breeds could be even worse – the other one I was really invested in, Pembroke Welsh Corgis, was definitely worse. That was long ago now, maybe they’ve improved. I could tell very ugly stories about them. It was that experience that killed my ability to enjoy conformation shows.
certainly there are good breeders of many different breeds breeding quality dogs. The point I was trying to make is that simply because one is breeding show/purebred dogs does not mean one is producing superior dogs. They may be - I am absolutely in love w/ our current purebred dog - who ticks all the boxes he is supposed to. However, as his breed becomes more popular, I worry that the quality may go down and genetic issues may crop up. the current position of the his breed club is to NOT have the dog become an AKC show dog so that the breed remains truer to its function (upland bird dog).
whelping: a friend of ours bought a hunting dog from a breeder who repeatedly breeds a bitch who, due to conformation, can not deliver puppies. To me that is a problem.
The Cavalier King Charles spaniel story breaks my heart because they are the cutest!
S1969 - your dogs are beautiful and seem to love to hunt - wouldn’t mind a brit in our house, either
One of my good friends is a conservation officer. He hunts all over Ontario and Saskatchewan with his two Goldens. One is 9 and still going strong, the other is only two. The first breeder wasn’t really breeding anymore and was able to refer him to a couple other good breeders when he was looking for a second dog.
Edited to add that our neighbour has a golden that he hunts with. Biddable, great temperament, decent conformation. Her hips didn’t pass though so they had her spayed. They informed the breeder who made the decision to pull the bitch from her breeding program.
I share a lot of the dislike of indescriminate cross breeding for trendy pet homes, and appreciate diligent breeders carefully maintaining a breed. And of I realize that not all breeding of registered dogs is that “good” breeding.
But average non-dog-show people don’t think German Shepherds (and other large dog breeds) have hip problems because they “look weird” but because a significant number of German Shepherds they encounter have hip problems. There’s a reason multiple hip dysplasia tests were developed, why they’re so important, and why prospective owners are told to make sure the parents were had their hips tested. Greyhounds were mentioned above as dogs with similarly angular conformation to German Shepherds, but they have horizontal backs and hip dysplasia is almost unheard of among the racing dogs. (Osteosacroma, on the other hand…). German Shepherds from “good breeders” might not have hip problems but that doesn’t mean that people are wrong if they perceive the breed overall having issues and not wanting to deal with trying to find an exception. I don’t think doodles solve this problem but I understand why people who aren’t really into researching dogs might think it does.
