Sigh - more designer breeds

[fledermaus]

You know, it strikes me that a big reason people do this ‘hybrid’ thing is simply because they suddenly realized that they can. That pure breeds can be just ingredients and anybody can mix them together however they fancy.

After all, 95% of dog buyers just want a pet. It’s sort of amusing to own a weird mix. And obviously people are willing to pay for it. Since it is a pointless fad, no doubt the bottom will drop out of the market eventually, like other pointless fads.

My 60 years of experience observing the dog breeding scene from inside and out is that dues-paying breed club breeders pay a fuck ton more lip service to lofty ideals than they ever put into selecting for actual real genetic health and good temperament, which is what really matters to that 95%. What they put their energy into is winning beauty contests, the hell with everything else except the mutual back patting. And I have a hundred awful personal anecdotes to back that statement up.

When I was a kid, a registered purebred had a lot of snob appeal. They were not common, because ‘regular’ dogs aka mixed breeds were so plentiful and perfectly adequate to pet owner needs. Spay/neuter was not the norm, and dogs were more like cats, picking their own mates more often than not.

Then we went through the ascendancy period of the AKC, when the burgeoning post war middle class had new discretionary income and back yards, and the AKC was the arbiter of worthy and unworthy.

But after 20 or 30 years, came the scandals of breed type exaggeration, the mounting public awareness of all the weird inbreeding problems these tiny closed gene pools increasingly generated. This was a combination of both media stories and collective experiences. Seemed like everyone with a registered purebred had stories of awful health issues, many unique to that breed. And the bloom came off the rose.

I don’t think the designer dog fad has a very sound genetic basis, but it certainly reflects the public disenchantment with pure breeds that the AKC faithful have only themselves to blame for.

[Saskatoonian]

I hear a lot of comments about hybrid vigor in promoting mutts, whether fancy or not. Even though testing has come a long way, that idea seems to have a lot of traction. IDK, my wonderful GSD mutt (dam a GSD; sire god knows what but suspect it involved akita) had DM, so yeah.

[S1969]

@Saskatoonian

I hear a lot of comments about hybrid vigor in promoting mutts, whether fancy or not. Even though testing has come a long way, that idea seems to have a lot of traction. IDK, my wonderful GSD mutt (dam a GSD; sire god knows what but suspect it involved akita) had DM, so yeah.

No idea why that idea has any traction because it’s entirely untrue.

“Hybrid vigor” only works if you cull the defective ones and/or let them die because of their genetic weaknesses. And then let the stronger survivors breed to strengthen the gene pool.

That is absolutely 100% not what designer dog breeding does.

[S1969]

@fledermaus

But after 20 or 30 years, came the scandals of breed type exaggeration, the mounting public awareness of all the weird inbreeding problems these tiny closed gene pools increasingly generated. This was a combination of both media stories and collective experiences. Seemed like everyone with a registered purebred had stories of awful health issues, many unique to that breed. And the bloom came off the rose.

Ehh…really it’s not that bad.

Sorry your purebred experience has been so miserable, because mine is definitely not. Maybe it’s because I own a dual-purpose breed, so while a lot of breeders choose to breed only show dogs, a lot of breeders are producing conformationally correct field dogs. So yes - genetic testing is really done and taken seriously, and the dogs with dual titles are definitely appreciated. Still more could be done to promote this - especially by our parent club - but the dogs that are producing well in my breed are not just winning a “beauty contest.”

[Saskatoonian]

Agreed 100% (in case it wasn’t clear from my post).

[S1969]

Oh yes - I understood that. i just don’t understand why people think it would happen. I mean, technically they are all the same species anyway, so they are not actually “hybrids” either.

So…just breeding potentially defective dogs but of a different “breed”…how would that change anything??

It would only be “better” if breeders were deliberately breeding defects OR unknowingly selecting for a trait that was paired with a defect – and this did happen (e.g. deafness in dogs with white ears, for example). Which is why health testing is important - because it helped identify these defects and then how to avoid passing them on. I mean, it’s the whole point…so…

Because most of them are not as obvious as “white ear = deaf”.

[Mosey_2003]

Hybrid vigor is something that it seems like the majority of the population has heard about and has decided is great, but don’t really understand.
Something that is driving the chicken breeders/fanciers nuts is how many new (to breeding) folks decide that they want a particular breed/variety and immediately post asking for chicks/eggs/juveniles from multiple different breeders/lines, “for hybrid vigor!” Where, in chickens, that is the LAST thing you want to do: those lines have been bred and culled hard for so long to lock in the good traits and breed out the bad that all you do by mixing them is waste all of that time and effort.

[fledermaus]

It is totally because you have a dual purpose breed. There are very, very few AKC breeds that still function at what they were bred for at the same level of usefulness. Several of the gun dog breeds, and a couple others. All the rest either have split into pretty AKC and useful non-AKC varieties, or non-AKC breeds have taken over their working niche. With the work gone, there is nothing to keep them from becoming caricatures of their useful selves.

I personally feel that the crime of designer dogs is the lesser one.

[fledermaus]

The ‘hybrid vigor’ that’s the buzz word has sound roots in livestock breeding, where for example commercial butcher lambs are bred from two populations which are kept separate, the ram line and the ewe line. It’s not hybrid in the sense of two different species, but two different genetic strains. This produces a resulting animal intended to be ‘terminal’.

Here’s a description of the practice in sheep (from “sheep 101”)
Crossbreeding

Crossbreeding is the mating of rams and ewes of different breed compositions or types. It does not denote indiscriminate mixing of breeds, but rather is a systematic utilization of different breed resources to produce crossbred progeny of a specific type. Crossbreeding is used extensively in the commercial sheep industry and the majority of slaughter lambs are crossbred.

Crossbreeding offers two distinct advantages over pure breeding: 1) heterosis; and 2) breed complementarity. Heterosis or hybrid vigor is the superiority of the crossbred offspring as compared to the parents. Mathematically, it is the difference in performance between the crossbred and the average performance of its purebred parents.

There are effects of heterosis in the crossbred offspring, crossbred dam, and crossbred ram. In general, crossbred individuals tend to be more vigorous, more fertile and grow faster than purebreds.

“Hybrid vigor” as I understand it is a function of increased heterozygosity not just in the genes of the animal but also in the gene structure itself.

Unfortunately, in the hands of ignorant amateurs, the concept is misunderstood, distorted, and ultimately just a gimmick.

[S1969]

@fledermaus

Heterosis or hybrid vigor is the superiority of the crossbred offspring as compared to the parents. Mathematically, it is the difference in performance between the crossbred and the average performance of its purebred parents.

“Superiority” of what? As compared to the parents in what respect?

According to Wikipedia - Heterosis , hybrid vigor , or outbreeding enhancement is the improved or increased function of any biological quality in a hybrid offspring. An offspring is heterotic IF its traits are enhanced as a result of mixing the genetic contributions of its parents. (Key word is “IF”)

Without any sort of scientific backup I don’t necessarily think this is any more true than when said by doodle breeders. “In theory” cross breeding “might” produce better results than inbred individuals.

[Ghazzu]

@S1969

Without any sort of scientific backup I don’t necessarily think this is any more true than when said by doodle breeders. “In theory” cross breeding “might” produce better results than inbred individuals.

Tell that to my favorite local swine breeder who routinely produces excellent carcasses with a 3 way cross method he’s been using for years.

Of course there’s more to it than simply increasing heterozygosity, but done right, it is a pretty standard livestock production approach.
I think the animal science departments at major land grant colleges have a bit more of a handle on it that the doodle breeders.
But I suppose I could be wrong.

[Ghazzu]

Crossbreeding: implications for dairy cow fertility and survival

Optimum crossbreeding systems for goats in low-input livestock production system in Kenya

Economic consequences of dairy crossbreeding in conventional and organic herds in Sweden

[EventerAJ]

@S1969 I don’t think you can compare the results of “cross breeding” livestock to a pet population. Livestock are systematically graded and breeding stock is unashamedly culled if production is not up to par. Carcass quality, weight, etc can be very selectively bred for, and very predictably improved with proven crossbreeding. In essence, the terminal “hybrids” are sort of their own legitimate breed, because the desired traits are achieved very reliably from combining two known populations. And if those traits are NOT achieved, well, those sires/dams end up on an early plate and their genes don’t continue. For these terminal crosses, too, pretty is as pretty does…no one cares if the steer is spotted with blue eyes and curly hair, they just want it to grow fast and taste good. These “performance” (meat production) results are well known because a million edible animals over many many years have been systematically bred and slaughtered and we’ve learned what works and what doesn’t.

Such is not the case with the general Doodle population of Poodle x Other Breed. There is no “standard,” no objective measure of quality, and the resulting traits of the cross are less predictable. The breeding stock probably isn’t the “best of breed” with many generations of proven performance/known heritability. Too much emphasis is on outward appearance and a cutesy mashed up breed name, vs heritable temperament and conformation. I suppose if you are ok with puppy mills breeding thousands of dogs and killing all but the best ones, the predictable F1 doodle cross could be achieved as the livestock industry has done.

[onlyTBmares]

I’ve been scanning for a while and just have to chime in. These designer breeds have been driving me nuts for a long time. You hear people saying you get “the best of both breeds” which is not necessarily how that works. I’m talking purely personality here, so forget the hair, non shedding bla bla bla of the doodles. What drives me nuts is the breeds that are mixed with poodles that are so unlike a poodle. I’ve been seeing a lot of Pyredoodles lately. Now if you want a great pyrenese, that’s a very specific personality. It’s a great dog for some humans and a terrible dog for some humans. They are largely untrainable, stubborn, independent, amazing farm protectors. Poodles too, are terrible for some humans great for others. They’re more driven working dogs and need more active job to do than lying around watching sheep. You might get a blend of personality or you might get 100% poodle or 100% pyrenese. That just seems nuts to me. Dogs are such a long time commitment, if you’re going out and finding a purposefully bred animal I just think you shouldn’t gamble on something like that. I have a friend who has an old English sheep dog poodle, and it’s just a poodle with different hair. They wanted a mellow dog and used to have OES. It’s so driven and wants to play fetch all waking hours. Why not just get a sheep dog?

[fledermaus]

@S1969

Without any sort of scientific backup I don’t necessarily think this is any more true than when said by doodle breeders. “In theory” cross breeding “might” produce better results than inbred individuals.

There is plenty of evidence. Agricultural universities have been testing and refining this technique for decades. I clipped the long tables of data as not relevant, but in market animals such measurable factors as early weight gain, feed utilization, fat marbling, survivability, and the like, are what they are after.

In dogs, of course, it’s all very blurry, and handwaving and hype rule the day. But the science behind the general idea is very well tested.

[S1969]

@Ghazzu

Tell that to my favorite local swine breeder who routinely produces excellent carcasses with a 3 way cross method he’s been using for years.

Of course there’s more to it than simply increasing heterozygosity, but done right, it is a pretty standard livestock production approach.
I think the animal science departments at major land grant colleges have a bit more of a handle on it that the doodle breeders.
But I suppose I could be wrong.

I believe it can work, but just crossing two unrelated animals does not guarantee “superior” outcomes. If your swine breeder actually can tell that the offspring are actually different - more meat/lb., more hearty/healthy, grow faster, whatever - then I agree that it probably makes a difference. (Although again, unless they are actually testing this method it’s hard to prove that the offspring are really statistically better). But livestock producers presumably can see some differences or they wouldn’t bother being so careful.

My point is that it is one thing to say it can produce better results and it does produce better results - in specific ways.

[S1969]

@EventerAJ

@S1969 I don’t think you can compare the results of “cross breeding” livestock to a pet population. Livestock are systematically graded and breeding stock is unashamedly culled if production is not up to par.

Yes - I agree. Culling is a necessity for cross-breeding to be better - OR “natural selection” and let the coyotes/wolves/cold kill the weak ones.

I am certain that this method does make a difference when done correctly and with proper selection. Designer dog breeding does not really come close to that standard.

[phantomhorse]

@Ghazzu

my favorite local swine breeder who routinely produces excellent carcasses with a 3 way cross method he’s been using for years.

Of course there’s more to it than simply increasing heterozygosity, but done right, it is a pretty standard livestock production approach.

I think the biggest difference between most livestock producers and producers of misc crossbred dogs is having a purpose (beyond making money). I bet your local swine breeder can tell you exactly what s/he wants in their offspring (increased growth? more muscle mass?) which results in that excellent carcass. They developed their cross(es) to achieve that. What, specifically, are most designer dog breeders trying to do?

There are some people crossbreeding for a specific purpose, but at least in this area where puppy mills are the norm, the main purpose seems to be to sucker people out of their money.

[S1969]

@phantomhorse

What, specifically, are most designer dog breeders trying to do?

Exactly.

Initially, the thought was hypo-allergenic coat with a Lab temperament. But there can’t really be many reasons for all these crosses, and when asked, most breeders don’t have a reason (and if they have a statement on the website it says things like “best of both breeds” but doesn’t identify any of those traits).

I sat in an uncomfortable conversation at work recently where someone was talking about a golden-doodle they knew and how great it was; another person added the blanket “they are great dogs” and the first person said she was “going to wait because she would rather rescue one than buy one.”

(If they are so great, there shouldn’t be a need for rescues…the breeders should be able to re-place the dog easily enough…)

[foursocks]

Oh, this topic makes my blood boil. We have a shepadoodle (gag, stupid name) that was pulled from a puppy mill in PA along with his litter and their poor, ruined mother by a rescue. He’s very lowrent and we just call him a shoodle, lol. He’s lucky he made it out of there as he does NOT have the coveted hypoallergenic haircoat; his coat is wiry and only a bit curly and he sheds like it is his job. I learned recently that many of the poodle mixes that come out with fur instead of hair often end up being killed because you can’t sell them for as much or at all.

I adore our dog- he’s wonderful and a sweetheart, but he is not an exemplar of either breed. His eyes don’t work correctly and he’s a dingbat. Apparently crossing two of the smartest breeds (GSD and Poodle) sometimes backfires…

At the vet the other day I saw someone with what looked like an Irish Setter Poodle mix, which has to be one of the worst crosses. It was a hyper, oversized mess of a dog and the owners clearly were not up to the task of dealing with it. I grew up with Setters and they are lovely, amazing dogs in and of themselves, albeit excessively silly and very energetic. Why do this cross?

As for the Pyr-Poodle mixes- why??? There are HUNDREDS of purebred Pyrs that get thrown out and into the shelter/rescue system every year. As someone mentioned above they are hairy, large, loud, stubborn, deaf when it suits them, and lazy but need a job. They often don’t get along well with other dogs or people outside of their family, and having two female Pyrs together is apparently a recipe for a dog fight. Why put another stubborn, super-smart breed with that one? Oh, I know: because the resulting cross looks like a cute muppet puppy and you can sell it for thousands of dollars. I hate it.

We had a St. Bernard that was a product of really bad breeding (brother-sister mistake crossing by a breeder who was already not good) who we got from the family that bought him. They couldn’t deal with how large he was getting (roll eyes, it’s a SAINT BERNARD, what did they expect?), so we took him home. He turned out to be extremely people-aggressive and fearful; the behavior clinic we took him to said this is very common for Saints because of irresponsible breeding for looks not temperament. Plus, apparently his breeder stopped feeding the mother to try to get her to abort so he was malnourished before he was even born. The behavioralist and vet at the clinic said he was probably doomed from the start, by both nature and nurture. I hate it. He was an amazing dog and we loved him and managed his issues pretty well, but he got more and more dangerous as he got older. Greed (breeders) and ignorance (buyers) together is a terrible thing.