But why does the dog in the picture have that odd stance, with the hind legs out behind it and its bottom so low to the ground? Is that healthy conformation?
6 Likes
That is just a stack. It’s the way they are posed for conformation critiques.
No different than how certain breeds of horses are stood in specific ways, based on their breed.
1 Like
Much like how you might see a TWH or SB or even Morgan set up for an in hand class. The visual exaggeration of angles can become quite trendy. However, at liberty, these horses (and the above dog) would naturally stop and stand in a much less angulated position.
2 Likes
I’ve seen a “stack” in motion and the dog still looked deformed: it was a moving stack. The British military moved to using the Belgium Shepherd, the Malinois, in multiple roles because, to quote the Boss at the Defence Animal Training Centre several years ago, “The breeders have ruined the German Shepherd”.
8 Likes
I think she’s referring to your photo. Which, to me shows an angulated dog heeling nicely - but if you let that dog trot at it’s natural pace it would look quite different. The angulation is designed to give power at the trot.
The amount of angulation a show GSD has isn’t really that extreme compared to a lot of other breeds. I think most people just don’t really watch dog shows and/or ever paid attention. The proportion of the GSD makes it more obvious with angulated stifles and hocks, but you can see it in a lot of breeds, especially those who should show reach and drive.
This is a nice awkward photo of the Irish Setter which makes that angulation look more extreme than it is. The greyhound is a pretty angulated breed but the proportions for height and back hide it - the greyhound is not a trotting breed so they need that length of back and loin for spring at the gallop.
3 Likes
Just to add to this discussion about conformation - I get annoyed with it because as I said above - it’s usually all about GSDs and Bulldogs.
But there are a lot of breeds that have odd conformation, and for some reason they don’t get discussed as much as the good old “my GSD didn’t look like that” conversation.
Just as GSDs were bred for power at the trot, other breeds were bred over centuries to perform a function. That’s WHY the conformation is the way it is. And many of them have not changed much over time other than grooming. I am sure that some things have changed, but I’m not sure it is as extreme as many people believe.
4 Likes
Don’t let the Dandie Dinmont’s appearance fool you. They were developed for vermin control in the 1700s and although are rather gentle in nature with people, they have the heart of a terrier and will hunt when the opportunity arises.
And they don’t always look like froo-froo dogs. Here are a couple of pics showing them in a more natural state. (The black & white photo depicts an earlier version of a Dandie.)
They are wonderful little dogs for those that don’t mind the terrier temperament. They are also unfortunately somewhat “endangered” - their numbers are dwindling. A Dandie could be a great pet for people who prefer a dog that is not “run of the mill.”
2 Likes
Oh I’m not fooled. I understand the terrier temperament and definitely think people should be especially careful with terriers as housepets thinking they are toy dogs.
I just don’t want one. Nothing against them. My point mainly was that we all have “likes” and “dislikes” with regard to dog breeds - and not liking the way they look doesn’t mean they are flawed or deformed or unhealthy…
3 Likes
Bedlington Terriers - another breed that has been sort of ruined by show grooming. They look like those robots (?) in Star Wars.
But they are really nice dogs - an elderly friend had several and even took her last one with her when she moved to Assisted Living. He was a big hit there - very even tempered and everyone loved him.
Here are some pics of Bedlingtons in a more natural state,
2 Likes
Gotcha! I agree, too many people get a terrier thinking they will be great family pets. I was working for a small animal vet some decades back when the Jack Russell craze hit. If I had a nickel for every poorly trained and poorly managed JRT that came in for vet work or boarding or grooming, I would be rich. So many families got suckered in by those cute JRTs on television - some of those “pets” were completely unmanageable and sometimes ended up being euthanized because of uncontrollable aggression and bad bite histories.
4 Likes
Nothing gets ruined by grooming.
I wish grooming wasn’t as important in the show ring, but it doesn’t change the structure of the dog. Most of the show dogs I know do not look like show dogs at home (mine certainly don’t, even before retirement!)
I personally like showing in the rain. LOL. Grooming is not a factor then. My breed doesn’t really need a lot of grooming but when people groom excessively it does make the rest of the entries look kind of shabby.
ETA I went down a rabbit hole looking at pictures of dog shows I’ve been in, trying to find a good shot of my breed and how grooming affects the overall presentation, and couldn’t really find one that did a good job without making someone else’s dog look really bad. But did find this shot my friend took and thought I’d share it because you can see in a show like this how grooming would be hard to overlook when they are all side by side like this:
My dog is the first one you can see the face (2nd in line). Can’t remember who won that day but I know it wasn’t me. 
4 Likes
Yep, “show” grooming and day to day have little in common in my breed where we blow out like we’re auditioning for an 80s hair band. We don’t use a lot of product in my breed but there is definitely a “bigger is better” approach to hair, especially on the males.
1 Like
I saw this photo some time ago and it stuck with me because of the boxer’s face–he actually has a bit of a muzzle. Of course maybe Billie Holiday has a boxer mix, but possibly not.
4 Likes
Or she has a purebred Boxer that wasn’t bred to the standard, or doesn’t meet the standard. That’s why these photos aren’t helpful. There are a lot of purebred dogs out there that are not correct (intentionally or unintentionally). The correct modern Boxer does have a muzzle but it’s a different shape than the photo here. https://www.americanboxerclub.org/jtb-boxer-head.html
2 Likes
@S1969, the aged boxer at the bottom is so adorable with that grey muzzle. So very cute!
That is a very informative page.
Fashions change and Judges judge even though the breed standard remains unchanged over decades.
1 Like
Most clubs have a helpful illustrated standard. My club is still stuck in the dark ages. Look at this disaster. Can’t even get it on one page on the website.
http://www.theamericanbrittanyclub.org/forms/ABCStandardIllustrations1.pdf
http://www.theamericanbrittanyclub.org/forms/ABCStandardIllustrations2.pdf
Last I heard they were going to convert the breed video from VHS to DVD. 
1 Like
Well, yes, but it’s the breed club’s responsibility to train and mentor judges. And, in cases where they feel that a judge is incorrect, there are ways in which the club can reach out and correct them. It doesn’t happen a lot but it does happen.
This is also why it’s important for the national breed specialties to be the highest honor to be won. Winning the breed at Westminster is a nice win, but winning (or anything in the ribbons) at your national should be (and usually is) more important. The club chooses judges who know the breed, and the entry is typically much, much larger.
2 Likes
So I should have said the breed’s “appearance” gets ruined by over-grooming. (I used Old English Sheepdogs in my example in the other thread.)
Curious - is there a lot of scissoring work done on a show Brittany? I never really thought of them as a breed that was “overgroomed” but I don’t have a lot of familiarity with them (we didn’t have sporting dogs in our show string back when I was showing - which I admit was ages ago - LOL).
1 Like
Valley Bulldog anyone? This is a Boxer English Bulldog cross. I am a Boxer girl. My first two were puppy purchases and my last 4 have been from our local rescue. Our local rescue always has DOZENS of Boxers in need because as a breed they are a real wild child when juvenile. When I heard about this mix my only response was, “Just no.” Of course my coworker has one. Her hubby did “extensive research” to find a “high quality breeder” in MISSOURI !! The puppy cost more than $1000.
