And the point will be?
I’d venture that competition at the highest levels doesn’t make them popular with breeders.
To get to the highest levels means the stallion is older and might not be the TYPE that is the current fashion in dressage.
Fashion doesn’t seem to matter in jumpers.
[QUOTE=not again;4168263]
Nice to see some numbers. But if you used the same concept in thoroughbreds, you would probably find that quality/success is not necessarily equal to quantity.[/QUOTE]
And that is one reason why I thought it would make for an interesting discussion.
[QUOTE=not again;4168263]Since our program is geared toward producing grand prix dressage horses, we use stallions that have done that level if at all possible. They often have small foal crops from their younger years since they were out there competing.
Just a thought…[/QUOTE]
And a good thought it is, too. As already stated several times on this thread, it is hard to keep a popular breeding stallion at the top of his game performance-wise, too. Many stallions often didn’t get large numbers of mares while they are out competing, esp. in the past when the use of frozen semen wasn’t as commonplace as today.
Windfall struck me as a popular eventing stallion, his name comes up a lot when people are asking for eventing stallion suggestions. I thought the criteria was popular? 
My apologies if I misunderstood.
I suppose it would be difficult to get a handle on the number of foals for him (other than any provided by the owner) as it is my impression eventing breeders aren’t big into registering foals.
Actually, I think that is a good argument for the continued improvement of frozen semen methods. One of the obvious reasons is that it allows the mare owner access to a wider range of stallions, but since it also allows stallions to get out there and show what they can do (and hopefully what they can pass on) and still have a breeding career it will be interesting to see what the expanded use of frozen semen does to breeding for performance in general.
When more breeders can use the current winners (i.e. the Hicksteads, Briars and Judgments of the world) will we see improved performance?
[QUOTE=Oakstable;4168745]
And the point will be?[/QUOTE]
The point is that someone said on another thread that many of the most popular warmblood stallions did not have performance careers of any note. I thought that would be an interesting topic to explore.
So we therefore have to FIRST determine which are the most popular warmblood stallions. Discussing every stallion with an upper level career, no matter how many or how few foals he has, does not meet the criteria for THIS discussion.
You are no doubt correct in most cases. So let’s discuss the performance careers of the stallions on my list, and see if we can determine WHY they were so popular with breeders. I suspect we already know WHY in many cases (marketing hype, etc.), but there are some stallions on the list that may surprise us.
[QUOTE=Springlake1;4161345]
Fuerst Gotthard (now retired I think…) Landkoenig, Diamont, Prinz Gaylord, Chakka Khan, Cabaret, Lemgo…
Im sure there are lots more[/QUOTE]
Fuerst Gotthard was a GP show jumper ridden by Robert Ridland, and Prinz Gaylord also had a show career. Where are you getting your info??:eek:
I know…
:winkgrin::winkgrin:
[QUOTE=feather river;4168850]
Fuerst Gotthard was a GP show jumper ridden by Robert Ridland, and Prinz Gaylord also had a show career. Where are you getting your info??:eek:[/QUOTE]
I know these guys were performers…I even knew them when they were actively competing and bred several mares to them each…Early in this thread I was just listing my own favorites that I had used on my own mares. Just a list, no comments on performance. Later I added info about a few that I saw compete. I got my info from observing both Fuerst Gotthard (whom I visited at Edgars just last fall, he is one of my alltime favorites and is indeed retired) and Prinz Gaylord I saw competing in the 80’s or so,… So…thats where I got my information…personal experience! :yes:
Did you mix up my list with the list on post 25?
DownYounder,
Not really sure that this is serving its point. Are you sure that the performing stallions that others have brought up do not in fact have over 200 foals? And moreover, only 3 on your list did. Therefore this is becoming very arbitrary who gets included in the “list”. I am almost sure Gervantus II has 200+ on the ground due to his age and his popularity, same with Windfall and Abdullah (he even has sons standing in Europe that are very popular). I think this discussion is actually misrepresenting NA performing stallions by having a list that is not even close to a representation of actual stallions that would qualify, even by your own standards. Maybe if you start the discussion on what you would like to discuss about the stallions on your list? My two cents about those stallions (on the list) is they are not the only ones, and they were chosen exclusively as a result of not having a complete list (or stats) of NA stallions.
Not that they are not great animals, just not a complete list!
Actually, stallions book a lot less mares than people realize or expect or even are lead to believe. Many stallion owners that I talk to are excited if they get any outside bookings at all as they primarily breed to their own mares.
stoicfish, why does it bother you to have this discussion? I think it is a valid one.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;4169253]
DownYounder,
Not really sure that this is serving its point. Are you sure that the performing stallions that others have brought up do not in fact have over 200 foals? And moreover, only 3 on your list did. Therefore this is becoming very arbitrary who gets included in the “list”. I am almost sure Gervantus II has 200+ on the ground due to his age and his popularity, same with Windfall and Abdullah (he even has sons standing in Europe that are very popular). I think this discussion is actually misrepresenting NA performing stallions by having a list that is not even close to a representation of actual stallions that would qualify, even by your own standards. Maybe if you start the discussion on what you would like to discuss about the stallions on your list? My two cents about those stallions (on the list) is they are not the only ones, and they were chosen exclusively as a result of not having a complete list (or stats) of NA stallions.
Not that they are not great animals, just not a complete list![/QUOTE]
We have pretty much agreed it is impossible to come up with a fully accurate list. Someone suggested the “200” number as a mark to shoot for, but, again, there is no way to verify how many foals any given stallion had over his lifetime. There is no single entity in N.A. that collects those stats. The registries only have data for foals registered with their own organization, and only ISR publishes the data. Add to that the fact that many foals do not get registered at all, esp. those destined for the hunter or eventing worlds.
The list I posted came from ISR and is the ONLY hard data we have to work from. So let’s use it. The list contains only those stallions with 50 or more foals registered with ISR through 2007 (I was not sent data through 2008). Any stallion not on that list apparently did not have at least 50 foals registered with ISR through 2007. (And BTW, I asked about Walldorf and was told he only had 30 ISR registered foals. West Coast wasn’t on the ISR list at all.)
So can we start discussing the stallions on the list? Who wants to tell us about Frohwind’s performance career? Did he compete at all? What about Ideal or Art Deco? We already said that Riverman competed to 2nd or 3rd Level Dressage. What about the next one on the list - Deutschmeister? I confess that I know very little about him.
Actually, I decided to start the discussion:
Frohwind, 1988-2007 - 320 ISR/ONA foals - competed successfully in FEI Dressage, Prelim Eventing, and Open and Modified Jumpers
Ideal, 1990-2007 - 319 - competition career?
Art Deco, 1992-2007 - 308 - “competed successfully in Grand Prix Dressage, Hunters, Eventing and Jumpers”
Riverman, 1997-2007 - 191 - competed to 2nd or 3rd Level dressage (?)
Deutschmeister, 1988-2007 - 182 - competition career?
Alla Czar, 1988-2007 - 179 - champion “A” circuit hunter, also competed in dressage through PSG
Fuerst Gotthard, 1987-2007 - 149 - won multiple Grand Prix jumping titles
Contucci, 1999-2007 - 139 - competed through 2nd (3rd?) Level dressage
Hall of Fame, 1993-2007 - 136 - competed through 2nd Level dressage, also an “A” circuit Green Conformation and First Year Working Hunter Champion
Cor Noir, 1994-2007 - 99
Mannhattan, 1995-2007 - 98
Rainbow, 1996-2007 - 93
Conquistador, 1990-2007 - 87
Cabaret, 1991-2007 - 85
Sempatico M, 2005-2007 - 85
Impresario, 1990-2007 - 84
Parabol, 1992-2006 - 81
Wradar, 1998-2007 - 79
Welstern, 1988-2007 - 78
Pointmaker, 1995-2007 - 75
Phantast, 1993-2007 - 70
Landkönig, 2002-2007 - 67
Roc USA, 2002-2007 - 64
Bordeaux, 1992-2005 - 58
Lehndorff, 1988-2007 - 52
Good lord, do we need a central database. :no:
(I know, it’s been said a hundred times…)
Definately one of the goals for the new Federation! :yes:
Well I would hate to be known as a party pooper…just thought we might be missing some very important horses in this discussion by narrowing it down. But to add to the conversation, about the list :winkgrin: I think someone could also look at the performance of the offspring, which might be interesting/telling, if the stallion as no record (injuries). Also it might be interesting to look at the bloodlines. Frohwind is a son of Furioso II, and I will suggest that when breeding, people use nicks that are proven ex. Furioso and G-line – For Pleasure. So in NA quality sons of stallions, like Furioso II, might get many breedings for that purpose. On Frohwind’s homepage
he is also an outstanding athlete and has competed successfully in FEI Dressage, Prelim Eventing, and Open and Modified Jumpers.
So he has a record too.
Abdullah has 255 reg. Trak offspring. http://www.americantrakehner.com/Results/bySireLookup.asp?ID=OSB-A-S116
There would be tons more that are crosses with other WB’s that are not eligdable for Trak reg. Ex. http://www.frenchstallions.org/french_stallion_detail.php?stallion=2007014#cabdula_02.jpg
Down Yonder - where are your statistics coming from? Not sure how to read your stats.
I agree. I’d be more curious to know which stallions have been most successful in producing offspring successful in sport. Perhaps this info is available through USEF or USDF?
Not to spoil the party but just to show you how inaccurate that list is as a total number of breedings Fuerst Gotthard had bred 25 mares before I got him and his first year with me 40 mares and an average of 75 mares a year after that topping a hundred once and coming close to it other years, total 10 years so that is at least 750 offspring registered with10 different registries…
I have currently at least 4 stallions who have bred and will likely continue every year 50-100 mares 3 who have topped 100 in past years and several that have come close to 100 a season and only Landkoenig is on that ISR list. It is mostly Oldenburg and ISR and Hanoverian but we also ship a lot to Canada and have mareowners use many other registries.
I don’t think anyone mentioned Davignport and he competed through I2 with Bent and has foaled numerous successful competitors in all areas including proving to be an excellent broodmare sire. Someone would have to check with Angela but I am sure he has the required number of offspring. He is still sound and working too.
It’s a potentially interesting discussion, Down Yonder, but prone to everybody’s desire to see their stallion(s) of interest mentioned, despite your multiple attempts at reeling in the criteria you’ve set. Plus the added burden of not having a real database to refer to. It’s like herding cats…
I think that the figures are foals registered with Oldenburg. The numbers are published by the ISR, so the stallion could have had more babies just registered with other registeries. I agree with Down Yonder that’s it’s a way to see some published numbers, the other registries don’t do anything like that. I think that without the published number it’s all guessing what stallions get for breedings. I think it’s an interesting topic.
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