Spinoff- Controversy of Redwine affect the value of his offspring?

[Daventry]

@Angelico;6116498

When you go to look at a horse at her farm, you don’t pull up to a tenth generation ramshackle backyard operation with mutts running underfoot to go out to a back forty pasture full of wormy, unkept rejects. You arrive at a professional establishment to see a well groomed, healthy animal. That alone puts her miles ahead of many other breeders, simple professionalism.

A simple question: when was the last time you visited her acreage in person?

[quote=Angelico;6116498]I’d like to see any of you do better. There are breeders who manage to ge in some quality stock, but cannot market them like JB
[/quote]

MANY of us on this board do that already, and also top that by doing something called…wait for it…paying our bills and making sure we don’t screw over our Mare Owners and/or Warmblood Registries.

Being a highly successful professional and conscientious breeder isn’t just about advertising and breeding the best. It also means knowing when you’re in over your head, making sure you don’t get in over your head…and if you do, ask for help or cut back your program drastically so you don’t end up in the mess she’s in. Those breeders, I highly look up to.

[dianehalpin]

Well, Rabbit Ridge (now Summertime), a horse that I have not owned since summer of 2010, just placed 6th in Zone 3 in Two Year Old Hunter Breeding for 2011, although Ms. Burnell lives in California. The ribbon was sent to me in error. While I had a 50% interest in this very nice horse, the horse was legally able to earn points in Zone 3, where I reside. However, I was asked to continue with my “ownership” for the year 2011 by Jill’s representative here. I not only said “no, not legal” but emailed the USEF to make sure that they realized that the horse was not showing in the zone where his owner lived. At any rate, USHJA has sent me the green Zone ribbon for a horse I don’t own, didn’t own at the time of earning this, and whose winning of this blocked the seventh placed horse from being placed sixth and therefore gaining national recognition. I am happy to send this ribbon on to GFF as former owner or to the new owner but need to be provided an address. I just today received the ribbon, or would have inquired about how to send it on prior to this date.

Note to others: Do not ever attempt to involve me in dishonest schemes. I run a tight ship and a straight one.

[lauriep]

Diane, I can speak to that. USEF was notified promptly, but I didn’t realize I had to also notify USHJA. I assumed when the new owners registered him, it would nullify his previous registry in Zone 3. It wasn’t until Junior came home with the catalog that I saw that it had not happened that way. If you send the ribbon back and explain, or to me so I can do it, they can correct it and move everyone up a slot.

[dianehalpin]

Great, Laurie. Thanks for responding so quickly. Please email or message me your address and I’ll send it to you a.s.a.p… I just emailed Kelley at USHJA to make the correction.

[ise]

On Google Earth it does appear that properties around her farm are green. So it would not be over-reaching to believe that the tan/brown condition of her farm is due to over grazing which usually results from too many horses on too small acreage. And it isn’t such a minor detail to have issues of bad checks - it’s a Federal offense if a person knowingly writes a check when there are no funds to back it up. Mistakes can happen but repeated bounced checks is not a mistake.

I have 23 horses/ponies on my farm. They all have their own stalls to come into during the day in the summer and during the night in the other seasons. They are individually fed to make sure their nutrition is what they need. We manage our pastures to assure the horses have good grazing.

Now if this owner has the 40 broodmares on her property and young horses as well - I cannot believe she can properly manage their nutrition or the responsible management of her LAND. In this economy every single breeding has to be thought out completely from the time you decide to breed that mare to the time you can sell that offspring. Funds should be available to manage both if the economy continues to be bad. These aren’t items you can store until you have a buyer - they are live animals.

[gubbyz]

Sorry about earlier, my bad. Sorry Hillside!

[3Dogs]

[QUOTE=ne1;6116847]
Dang! where’s the ‘Like’ button???

Great post.[/QUOTE]

Hear hear. And can I add no matter how spiffy the MARKETING machine - reality does catch up! For those who care to know/ look for the truth that is!

[gubbyz]

Well apperently I got some "splainin to do (done in my best Ricky Ricardo voice.) To clear the air, I personally have nothing against GFF.If it wasn’t for Jills generosity 4 yrs ago, I wouldn’t have my filly. Has Jill ever done ME wrong personally or business wise? No. Do I agree with what I see sometimes? No. Do I like what is happening to some of the people on here, some of them being my friends? No. I guess when the welfare of an animal comes up, I get in over my head and chomp at the bit to practice “free speech”. Wrong! So I am officially retiring from this post. I guess the old saying “silence is golden” shoulda been my motto, but let me add “duct tape is silver”.

[showjumpers66]

Great post, Hillside. I wasn’t going to post, but I am also very tired of hearing folks come to her defense. There is far more going on behind the scene besides unpaid bills. For example, most of her great marketing has been “borrowed” from other stallion owners and breeders. Her discount program came word for word from our website. And, she uses numerous alters and friends to make negative comments about competitors stallions while talking up her own. Sure, it is a marketing ploy, but I consider it unethical as well as misleading.

[Laurierace]

Let me state once again for the record that I had absolutely no problems at any step of the process unless you count the IHF fiasco and do in fact have a lovely foal to show for it. That said, it is ironic that what finally sealed my decision to breed to Redwine was two extremely well respected breeders on this forum breeding their own mare to him. I felt if he was good enough for their mare that was good enough for me. Only later to learn that the breedings were to settle a debt owed. Like get a foal or get nothing sort of thing.

[Justa_Bob]

It is quite a surprise going from the website to putting the address into Google. There are MANY animals in the pens – only a single tree in one of many pastures. The rest are barren. If you look at the mare pictures - they are obviously taken somewhere else or are taken with an eye to carefully edit and crop out any shots of the actual property.

Although I never expect to purchase a horse from a breeder – at least the thread has been a very good education on what to look for and that a visit to the breeding farm is required – given what is out there. The point about nutrition for the developing foal - including mare care before conception is an excellent one. Food for thought.

[MagicRoseFarm]

@koppem10;6109331

^:yes: agreed.

I personally have a 2011 colt by Redwine and he continues to impress me on a daily basis. He is an amazing mover, has one heck of a personality, and is up for anything and everything. He is honestly quieter than my ex-children’s hunter… and not to mention he is drop dead gorgeous (may be a tad biased tho) :lol: ,…
… A quiet “freak of a mover” (as she put it) beautiful big black colt.

ahhh …you must have the one from the mare I bred , related to my stallion

[MountainCreek]

[QUOTE=Formosus;6105778]
Ditto everything that was said.

For the record I’ve had only excellent service from Jill and her crew.
My mare had a late diagnosed infection and needed multiple shipments (and I’m in Canada so apply the CEM factor :mad:).

Everyone of them arrived on time (except the last one-15 hours custom delay-sigh), in great shape, with the required information. I received the breeding certificate with no hassled once I told her that my mare was <finally!!> pregnant.

Now counting down the weeks for my little Redwine/Weltmeyer/Bolero baby.

If its a filly: she is MINE!!, if it’s a colt I don’t expect having any trouble finding him a good home: with the number of foals by Redwine out there potential buyers have a good idea what to expect.

My two cents…[/QUOTE]

I have to say CONGRATULATIONS ON GETTING YOUR SEMEN FROM THEM!!!
We had a bunch of breedings we sold for Jill (between her and mare owners to deal with monies and breeding certificates as with all the stallions we carry) THEY NEVER GOT THEIR SEMEN.
1ST it was HUGE delays. She couldn’t get a tank, or someone was sick or the weather…whatever it was MONTHS later I actually got the Fedex tracking number…semen was delivered…Ummmmm I lift the tank off the counter at Fedex and WHAT??? Its LIGHT…VERY LIGHT…we check the weight (at Fedex) and yes is much lighter…the TANK WAS DRY (we are talking a big dry shipper it was shipped and picked up with in a 2 day period. These tanks should be good for 7+days) Fedex asks me if I want to open there to check. HECK NO! Might just be very very close to uncharged…We contacted Jill right away who was VERY calm. (I was FREAKING out as this was the 1st and only shipment we have ever had an issue with !!!) OK so damage control. At this point I have NOT opened the tank to SEE it was charged. I rush to my vet office as I know he has liquid nitrogen there and is closer then our lab. We open it (hoping its just really really low!!) and sure enough the tank is totally uncharged. We fill the tank with Nitrogen to hear the horrible sound of popping…its all dethawed Called Fedex who assured me yes everything was insured by the shipper (Jill) and we should get all our $ back including the tax we paid at pick up through customs. Jill would be contacted when everything was finished and contact me if they needed anything else. So I take my 40 GARBAGE doses of Redwine semen home with tears in my eyes and a hug from my vet. Now the fun part calling mare owners. Jill has assured me she will send fresh cooled semen up for mare owners to fill contracts. I get all the new permits together, fax to Jill’s office 2 days later…nothing…weeks go by, no Jill. Mare owners calling every day, my mare is bred with something else…weeks go by, no Jill…we’re at the end of the breeding season most mare owners have been given or offered CHEAP breedings by other stallion owners in our program (THANK YOU GUYS YOU ALL ROCK!!!). Jill totally MIA.
I post something on FB about all the above (condensed into 5 lines) and look who emails me like 10 min later!!! The magical disappearing stallion owner Jill!!! A fabulous email full of threats and bad language…Thanks. I’m SO tired of her getting business from people. HOW is she still selling breedings? Foals??
Finally there is something being done!!!

off my soap box now!!!

[Kyzteke]

@dianehalpin;6110938

EquineLVR, people come on this particular forum for breeding advice and to delve into all aspects of the breeding business. Running a stallion station is a business. This is a stallion owner who has purchased at least one mare bred by another breeder and in foal at the time of purchase. After the foal was born, the GFF owner, according to what the real breeder of that foal told me, listed herself as the breeder.
That is just one of numerous acts of fraud that I have either experienced or been made aware of by other victims. Fraud is fraud. However, one is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law in the U.S. Caveat emptor.

Sorry – but in the horse world I know the owner of the mare at time of foaling IS the breeder. Unless they a deal worked out between them prior.

I’ve sold mares in foal by my stallion and the woman who owned the mare when the filly was born named herself as breeder AND used her ranch initials after the name.

I think this is the custom.

[pony_grandma]

gubbyz :lol: silence is golden but duct tape is silver :lol:

That should go on your signature.

Nothing to add that hasn’t been said. Everything that you say and do tells everyone exactly who you are.

[DownYonder]

MountainCreek - wow, what a mess. :eek:

Kyzteke -I believe in most of the WB world, the person who owned or leased the mare at time of insemination is the breeder.

[MountainCreek]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;6119917]
MountainCreek - wow, what a mess. :eek:

Kyzteke -I believe in most of the WB world, the person who owned or leased the mare at time of insemination is the breeder.[/QUOTE]

Yes the persons whos name is one the breeding certificate is the breeder in the WB world.

[Kerole]

It can go either way here… I certainly know of several cases where the foal of an in utero purchase was given the new stud’s brand/prefix and was listed as having been bred by the new owner. No-one thinks this is very unusual. Over here, if you want to remain listed as the breeder of the in utero foal then it needs to be very clearly spelled out prior to sale.

[Home_Again_Farm]

@Kyzteke;6119876

Sorry – but in the horse world I know the owner of the mare at time of foaling IS the breeder. Unless they a deal worked out between them prior.

I’ve sold mares in foal by my stallion and the woman who owned the mare when the filly was born named herself as breeder AND used her ranch initials after the name.

I think this is the custom.

That is incorrect for many breeds - including most of the warmblood registries. It is definitely incorrect for Hanoverians. The breeder is the person who owned the mare at the time of breeding. I have bought several mares that were in foal at the time I purchased them and always acknowledged the previous owner as the breeder of the foal.

[ise]

ALL of the Warmblood Registries consider the BREEDER to be the person who owns or has lease on the mare at the time SHE WAS BRED.