I think the problem is no one is willing to do their research. The turf lines are proven mainly because they are so successful in Europe not only on turf but over jumps. Jump racing is huge in Europe which many fail to realize.
LOTS of excellent lines out there to study and find prospects from; just have to be willing to look. In America, a lot of the turf lines are tried on dirt because dirt racing is more popular here. Doesn’t always work out.
On a side note; Jeepers dam, Whow (By Spectacular Bid) has several offspring with offspring themselves
1)Karlas Numbers by Polish Numbers (Danzig x BUckpasser x Swaps).
She has 5 registered foals:
Finallusion a 2009 filly by Elusive Quality.
Frenchman Bay 2012 colt by Super Saver
Mathematical. Owned by Winstar. 2013 gelding by Super Saver
Perico. 2008 colt by Songandaprayer
Spring Forward: Bred/Owned by Winstar. 2014 filly by Spring at Last.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/missy+kim23)National Gallery. By Lido Place. 2 foals:
Mele Kaliki Maka 2012 filly by wildcat heir
Miss MOrgan. 2013 filly by Corinthian
Niebla. 1999 mare by Belong To Me. 7 foals:
Miss Nick: 2006 mare by Essence of Dubai
My Boy CIgar: 2013 by wildcat heir
My Little Morgan: 2008 by Pomeroy. Photo here, shes flashy http://www.pedigreequery.com/my+little+morgan
Pin Free: 2005 mare by Tiger ridge. 145k in earnings
quality investment: 2012 colt by exclusive quality
Second of May: 2003 mare by Straight Man
Star Tiger: 2009 geld by roar of the tiger
Off Guard: By Red Ransom (Roberto) out of WHOW (Spectacular Bid). 4 foals. I’m sure these ones might be worth researching:
Eager Leader: 2007 mare by more than ready
Luv Adora: 2004 filly by precise end
Maggies Ransom: 2008 by thunder gulch
Off Sweets: 2003 by Prime Timber. Photo here http://www.pedigreequery.com/off+sweets
6)Weekend in Indy. 1995 mare by AP Indy of of WHOW. Died in jan 2009 from foaling complications. She is the dam to ANY GIVEN SATURDAY
Any Given Saturday: 2004 colt by distorted humor. Sent to South Korea 2015
Bohemian Lady: 450K in earnings. By Carson City. She has five foals (who I will list below
HEISMAN: By distorted humor. was standing at stud at Rushtons in coloado. Died of colic in 2016.
Weekend Whim: Distorted Humor. Foals listed below
Foals of Bohemian Lady:
A shin Carmen; 2008 giants causeway
Almoonqith: 2010 dynformer
Les Inities: 2013 Bernardini
Sports Book: 2012 Medaglia D Oro
Tizbo: 2011 Tiznow
Weekend Whim Foals:
Coconut SHrimp: 2010 giants causeway
Golden Monday 2011 Medaglia D Oro
I Like to Whim: 2013 Medaglia D Oro
NEW MONEY HONEY: 2014 medaglia d oro. over 600k in earnings and well known!
I think the problem is no one is willing to do their research. The turf lines are proven mainly because they are so successful in Europe not only on turf but over jumps. Jump racing is huge in Europe which many fail to realize.
LOTS of excellent lines out there to study and find prospects from; just have to be willing to look. In America, a lot of the turf lines are tried on dirt because dirt racing is more popular here. Doesn’t always work out.
I’ve done the research and expanding my knowledge base is extremely important to me. I go to the sales regularly (KEE, FTK, OBS) and study LOTS of horses, trying to match physical features with recent ancestors in the pedigree. I hunt for “sport type” and the stallions that tend to produce that most often. (I also hang out at the jog strip at Rolex, taking confo photos and honing my eye for how 4* horses are made.)
I look for stallions who stamp, and those who don’t (let the mare come through). I look at yearlings, mares, weanlings, and horses of racing age. I put most emphasis on the horse’s overall balance, proportions, front end, and its walk. Of course the hind end is important, but honestly it’s not usually a weakness in race-bred TBs. Most often, they have a big butt with a low shoulder and a level way of going; not what I want. I’m looking for an uphill neckset and a high point of shoulder with a long humerus; personally, I’ve found that to be important and a fairly common trait among successful upper level eventers.
I hunt for TBs with that shoulder, and I pay very close attention to where it may have come from in the pedigree. I take notes and compile them into spreadsheets, so I can track various sires and their conformational tendencies. “N=1” is the biggest weakness in our TB Sport Horse equation-- you need a big sample size to make accurate assessments of what a stallion produces (otherwise, how do you know it isn’t the mare?). I don’t develop a firm opinion on a stallion until I’ve seen at least 5+ examples (10+ is better).
From viewing many hundreds of horses in person, I’m starting to have a pretty good grasp on what I like, what I don’t like, stallions to follow, and stallions to avoid. True, 99% of the horses I’ve seen are unproven in sport other than racing. However, I think conformation plays a big part in how a horse moves and performs. So I’m on a quest to find the conformation that I think is best suited to an upper level event horse and the stallions who produce it; I feel this is useful even if I don’t have current knowledge of direct offspring successful in sport. I’m not particularly looking to breed to any of these stallions, but rather have an idea of what they produce so I can shop effectively in the OTTB market.
In the spirit of this thread, I put my money where my mouth is and in 2012 bred my upper level event mare to a TB race stallion, Sightseeing. I chose him because I liked the horse’s conformation, I liked his pedigree for sport (Pulpit/AP Indy over Pleasant Colony mare), and I saw dozens of his yearlings/2yos who were VERY CONSISTENT in type, in a way that suited my mare. The resulting TB foal is coming 4, and just did his first XC school on Saturday. https://youtu.be/uaoTsplQ01o
He’s smaller than I’d hoped (15.3; mom is 16.1 sire was 16.3) but conformationally, he’s just about what I expected. He’s very well balanced with a lovely front end, strong hip, athletic, and better to ride on the flat than his mother. He has some cheeky, naughty moments, and he finds jumping to be boringly easy (though I haven’t jumped him over anything significant to know how scopey he is). I am happy with my breeding decision and how it is turning out. As for why I chose a racing stallion over a Sport TB, it came down to pedigree, prepotency, and what I felt would compliment my mare to produce my ideal type.
[QUOTE=snaffle1987;9021597]
it may be theoretical but to whom is it theoretical? there are proven bloodlines that is worth looking into. Yes they may take a pretty picture but its up to you, the breeder, to do your research. Visit the stallion, inquire about him, get lots of photos, maybe even a video if they can supply one, research his offspring, ask around. They do not all have bad temperments and even though Dynaformer had a bad temperament, the majority of his offspring and sons did not inherit it. Barbaro and his siblings for instance were all lovely to work with.
BUt ultimately its up to you, if youre interested to do the research just like you would with breeding to warmblood stallions.
IMHO, I think a lot of these would be lovely crossed with warmblood mares who have great movement or jump[/QUOTE]
I say it’s theoretical because I have first hand experience with many of these stallions and they are NOT, IMO, sporthorse material in person. Despite favorable bloodlines. I don’t want say who specifically, because I think that is a little unfair on a public forum to the stallion owners, so I chose to discuss the one I knew I could recommend.
Many of these stallions just aren’t available to WB mares, either, regardless of whether or not they would cross well. Some smaller farms will do it, but the big TB owners usually won’t offer their stallions to anything but TBs.
Obviously, I was not referring to the few who were posted who are specifically sport horse sires or have been around long enough to have get competing successfully in the sporthorse world.
On a side note, I still have a scar on my hand from Barbaro 11 years later. He was lovely until you pissed him off. 
way to go AJ! that’s what I am talking about! How were the owners receptive to you breeding to him for sport??
Which stallions, in all of your research do you like the most thus far?
As far as TB stallions who are more proven to produce sport horses:
INNKEEPER> I provided info on him earlier. He was still standing at VA Tech in 2016, not sure what his current status is. Since he was at VA Tech; Its probable that he was collected. He is a son of Secretariat. He is also ISR/Oldenburg approved for those wanting an approved stallion! His dam produced the horse of the year in Ireland, Sir Harry Lewis and Sir Richard Lewis. His dam was my Mr Prospector and out of a Native Dancer mare. He is a stallion with bone and substance with a very nice shoulder, uphill build and he has been a successful racehorse, show hunter and eventer in his career (He did some dressage too). He truly is/was the complete package for those looking for a Thoroughbred stallion like this. Its a shame he didn’t get extremely high use. He was good enough to stand at Hilltop in his earlier years as part of their guest stallion program. Warmblood/sport horse breeders need to take a look at him. Here is a video of a 2012 filly bred by VA tech
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxmrfN-ze_k
Here is a stallion out of an Innkeeper mare: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0-nKxXTLhE
3 yr old Innkeeper in 2015 (nice hunter type!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbCUsh06YPs
And finally a video of innkeeper himself from 2014!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1lQvx5Hnyw
.And I have never shopped for a sport horse prospect based on a warmblood registry affiliation. It is nothing against them; but their affiliations, scores, stallion proving, etc mean nothing to me.
This tells the story.
WBs dominate dressage h/j/EQ and are going to dominate eventing based on the way formats are changing. It may suck, but it is what it is.
I love TBs myself, it is still hard for me to think that a well bred TB isn’t the perfect event horse.
But, times and tastes change. The fact is that if you want to be competitive in the show ring today (possible exception for eventing), shopping for a TB stallion is not going to get you there.
Particularly an unproven racing stallion whose “sport” lines are from 20+ years ago.
Other older TB stallions. Not sure if they are still around or where they’ve ended up.
CASTLE COVE: Last known to be in VA but website is gone. He was by Castle Magic (By Clavier and out of a Court Affair mare). His dam Accaroid and out of a BOLD BIDDER mare. He is a proven sire of hunters and his offspring have won many USEF HOTY awards.
FUN AND FANCY FREE: On the line winner at Upperville. Sire of primarily hunters. He really stamps his offspring with lovely type; could see them eventing very well also! His sire also showed as a hunter. His sire was Bit of Class by Keelo (Hill Prince --> Princequillo). His dam was by a Tom Fool son and out of a Cormac x Tourist mare. He was a beautiful stallion to look at in the flesh. HIs sire BIT OF CLASS was a prolific hunter sire but died at the start of Fun and Fancy Free’s showing career. Website for Fun and Fancy Free is here he is available in collected semen: http://www.myfoxfarm.com/
Video of him here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQs00WQCqKo
http://www.kilkellyfarm.com/tee.htm
FLEETWOODS BOLERO: was last known to be at Hunt Farms in TX but their website domain is gone. He was sired by Its Fleetwood Mac ( By Maraschino (GB) out of a cockrullah (GB) mare). His dam was by Spring Double out of a Royal Warrior mare. He was well known for siring beautiful movers, bone, and jumping talent. Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki0BBzQZDXQ
I disagree dressagelvr. the stallions I posted today are proven TB sport horse sires who competed well and have sired on the line winners and performance winners. It’s just current breeders tastes are favoring the shiny objects of the imports. PLease watch the video of Fun and Fancy Free and tell me that doesn’t look like a warmblood toting around that course. Many warmbloods cannot even jump with a bascule like that today. Tremendous talent and the lines are going to be lost if we don’t continue the research and proceed with an open mind on TB’s. TB’s can still compete in the changing format of eventing; even if we are making the courses shorter for warmbloods to compete. Go to Europe, specifically Ireland where sport horses are the primary industry and the majority of their blood is still TB.
COCONUT GROVE: He is the first TB stallion to be granted approval by the American Holsteiner Assoc and the American Hanoverian Society. He has 100% positive approval status with 9 European, 9 U.S. and 1 Canadian Registry, the only thoroughbred in U.S. history to accomplish this feat.He was chosen in '05 to be a part of the Hanoverian Jumper Breeding Program. He has an extensive, proven and impressive shoe record. He is approved by the following stud books and is a full TB stallion North America: AHS, AHHA, ATA, BWP, KWPN-NA, RPSI, GOV, ISR/OLD NA, ZANG, SF, CWHBA. Europe: KWPN, Selle Francais, Rhineland Pfalz Saar, Zangersheide, Belgian Warmblood, Oldenburg, IHB, Hanoverian.
Coconut Grove is by the stallion, Dare to Pet by Dare to Command by a Bold Ruler son. His dam was by Propellent, by Damascus. He died in 2012 following colic surgery but is still available frozen at a very affordable price.
HEROICITY: Hanoverian approved sire. son of Cheraw (Ire) who was by CARO and out of a mare by Missle (War Relic). His dam was also irish/GB lines sired by Wolverton who stood in New Zealand. Heroicity had a tremendous race career with over 1 million in earnings. He sired both tremendous hunters but also great eventers while still being bred for racing. The majority of his runner were based in NZ while his sport horses were US based. He stood as a guest stallion at Hilltop Farm and died of colic
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10260947
FAVORITAS: full thoroughbred stallion. Sired by Reitar who was a son of Rubilnik. Hard to look at him and see full TB, he is an impressive stallion with extreme front end power, beautiful neck set, shoulder, etc. In 2002 he won the bronze medal at the World Championships for breeding stallions, “Sires of the World”, in Zangersheide. He has an extensive show record from the World Cup and Nations CUp as well as numerous grand prix. He is a close relative of Nona Garson’s Rythmical. Favoritas is inbred three times over the legendary German Thoroughbed, Raufbold xx, who revolutionized Russian sport horse breeding after World War II. Approved for: Holstein, Hanover, Oldenburg, Springpferdezuchtverband Oldenburg-International, Westphalia and Rhineland, all Southern German and new German State Verbands and in practically all European countries. Admitted to the Hanoverian Jumper Breeding Program
He was born in 1990
Pictures here: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=10350672&time=1439125103
SEA ACCOUNTS
1999 16.3 hh. Sea Accounts is the ONLY Thoroughbred stallion in North America approved by ANY European registry to complete his licensing requirements by age 5 and to receive his license based on the scores received at the 100–Day Test.
By Sea Hero (son of Polish Navy whos dam was by a Ribot son out of a Hail to Reason mare). His dam was by Private Account out of a Nijinksi mare. All excellent lines which have been mentioned in this thread in a lot of the sires being used in turf racing presently
http://www.debracysporthorses.com/DeBracy_Sport_Horses/Sea_Accounts.html
SALUTE THE TRUTH:
1995 TB stallion. America’s only Thoroughbred Advanced Eventing Stallion with offspring competing at the Advanced Level. Ranked 3rd in the USEF Leading Sires for Eventing in 2013!He was retired from stud in 2016 but I am not sure if they froze him??
Sire was Salutely by Hoist the Flag. His dam was by Sir Releigh by Sir Ivor. He has been successfully used as an event sire but has also produced some stunners out of registered warmblood mares.
SEA LION
Jockey Club Registration Number: 9845734
Lifetime breeding license with the ATA with scores of 8s and 9s out of 10, AHS, HGV, and the ISR/Oldenburg NA.
Scores with Hanoverian society are thought to be the highest ever given to a Thoroughbred Stallion in decades or longer
Sired by Sea Salute whos by DANZIG out of a seattle slew mare. His dam was by Caveat out of a Sir Ivor mare. Sea Lion competed successfully in twenty-one international eventing competitions, including fifteen at the 3* level, and competed at the Rolex 4* event. Sea Lion was USEA Regional Advanced Champion and USEF/ PHR National Advanced Champion.
2015: Memorial day Classic at L.A.E.C.: won both Thoroughbred Hunter classes: H.I.T.S. “A” Performance Hunter, 2nd H.I.T.S. “A” Devoucoux Hunter Prix, 3rd
In 2014 Sea Lion retired sound from eventing to begin his breeding career - while continuing to demonstrate his versatility competing in jumpers and hunters BAREFOOT.
He is available frozen in Australia and in Germany as well as the USA. A stunning example of a truly versatile, sound, hardy and excellent temperament TB stallion
All info (videos at bottom of page) http://www.warmbloodstallionsna.com/stallion-listing.php?stallion_id=401#picstallion1
TRIPLE TWIST
Direct descendant of the BONNE NUIT lines. He is actually Bonne Nuit top and bottom. Died in 2011 but he has 1 son being collected and there might still be frozen available. (his owner posts on COTH)
AARONS GOLD: Retired sound from the track and had an eventing career afterwards. He is big boned and a daisy cutter mover. He has been marketed primarily as a racing sire but he does have an open book to sport horse mares! He is the sire of Kenny Wheeler’s Moses as well as others
He has a LOVELY canter and way of going
There are videos and photos here:
http://www.mortgagehallfarm.com/aaronsgold.htm
Yep, approved stallions are super. Coconut Grove was a super successful show jumper. Dead, but still frozen available.
Proven sport horse.
Willy aka Salute the Truth is retired from breeding, sadly.
For sport, most riders will still want to buy a horse from sport proven lines.
Lots of people will still buy thoroughbreds, But not a lot of people breeding for sport will breed to these racing stallions.
They will breed to those licensed stallions above who proved themselves in sport.
speaking of TB stallions, EventerAJ, is Saketini still intact? What are your plans with him?
Bernardini has several TBs local to me that are very nice – IIRC, judybigredpony also has a Bernardini stud that is demonstrating serious UL event potential.
as usual, I’m in agreement with Texarkhana about many of the stallions listed here. I will say there is something to be said for seeing the stallion or his get in person. Many times I’ve gone and looked at a horse that I loved on paper/picture and just been so underwhelmed by the real deal. And vice versa.
I saw several of the Stonesider horses in person I listed above; Gilded Feather especially just took my breath away. There was another, Roses For Arlene (CANTER listing), that I cared for and she was huge and IMHO, one of the best TB movers I’ve ever seen.
NOBLE HOUSTON
Approved Oldenburg at the age of 15! By Houston by Seattle Slew. Dam is by Vaguely Noble out of a Damascus mare. NOble Houston is an impressive looking stallion which many may not hav heard about. His 2015 stud fee was 1000.00 with a 100.00 off if booked early. He has a 1 year LFG.
At the same inspection, a full TB daughter of his was inspected for breeding–and scored 109–which was one of the top scores in the nation. He has produced multiple Premium and Site Champion foals (including some out of Paint and Quarter Horse mares!). He is listed in RPSI as well (Book II because a change in the Michigan show circuit’s records resulted in loss of proof of performance). He is also listed with AQHA, APHA, ApHC, AWR, AWS, PHR, and of course the Jockey Club
http://bredtojump.com/houston.html
SHOW TO WIN
jockey club reg 17+ hand buckskin TB. His Sire, RJ’s Harri was known as TUXEDO and was a show hunter and hunter sire who was very impressive in the flesh. he died young so didn’t sire a lot of foals.
The entire breakdown of his pedigree is here:
http://bredtojump.com/winner.html
TWIST OF GOLD
Standing at the same farm as above is also a direct descendant of the Gem Twist/Bonne Nuit lines. HIs pedigree can be seen here and his stud fee is very affordable. http://www.pedigreequery.com/twist+of+gold2
I saw El Prado in 2008. What a gorgeous horse!
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