EventerAJ, what can you tell us about his history? He’s a 2009 whose only two starts were at Oaklawn in the spring of 2014. He got a 3rd in his first MSW race and came 6th 3 weeks later in an MSW and was lengths back in both, but then they stopped with him. You got him in 2016. That’s a very unusual record for any race horse. Any reason why they waited so long to race him and what happened to him between his two starts and 2016?
I have connections within the industry, and after explaining my intentions, the stud farm was quite kind to work with me. At the time, the stallion’s first crop was 2 year olds, and while well-bred, he wasn’t “hot” on the market in any way, so it wasn’t inconvenient for them to book my mare. Ironically, later that summer one of his 2 y/os hit big at Saratoga, and his stud fee jumped from $3500 to $7500 for the following year. Unfortunately, he died during colic surgery in the Southern Hemisphere before that breeding season. (I didn’t pay $3500, in case you were wondering, we had a private contract.)
Out of courtesy, I would only recommend breeding a sport mare with a lower-end (cheap) stallion who has an open book…don’t go to a popular, successful stallion (even if affordable) and expect the stud farm to accommodate you. Every live cover breeding is a risk (to horses and humans), and they will not likely risk their money-making stallion on a mare who isn’t going to produce a runner. But if the stallion isn’t busy, and you’re willing to pay the fee, some smaller farms will accept show mares. Keep in mind they may not allow you to register the foal, as it could negatively affect the stallions numbers (#foals produced to #starters, for example, since your sport horse will never start!).
Which stallions do I like most?
AP Indy and his sons are my favorite. I love the stamp of his front end, a big shoulder that comes up high out of the chest and a well-arched neck. This front end is really heritable, and I can usually notice it if AP Indy is in the first 4 generations (top or bottom). Sound horses, good minds (Pulpit/Tapits occasionally reputation for being hot), athletic, well-balanced. I’ve studied a LOT of his male descendants, trying to find the next Sightseeing. Obviously, expensive ones are very nice (Tapit, Bernardini, Malibu Moon) but realistically fewer of them will filter down to sport horse markets. More affordable/plentiful options may be Jump Start, First Dude, Mineshaft, Congrats, Flatter, Master Command, etc. I really like Jump Start, First Dude, and the late Silver Train (sire of my 2* horse, soon to move up to Advanced). I have really high hopes for Tonalist; by Tapit out of a Pleasant Colony mare, he is bred very similarly (and looks a whole lot like) Sightseeing. I like distance horses moreso than sprinters, so his win in the Belmont is quite appealing.
I also keep an eye on sires with AP Indy as their damsire, such as High Cotton and Super Saver. I happen to like Dixie Union and Maria’s Mon, though the AP Indy is still noticeable in many High Cotton and Super Saver foals. Speaking of Dixie Union, I’m really impressed with the few Union Rags I’ve seen so far; keeping him on the radar for the future.
Old, proven sires like Fappiano and Pleasant Colony are great to see, but harder to find in the first three or four generations (I don’t go back too far, the influence gets too diluted). Fappiano seems to cross well with AP Indy (see Tapit and Bernardini, through Rubiano and Quiet American). I also love Cormorant, he also stamps a dressage-type front end through several generations (he’s found in the dam of Silver Train, and currently his sireline is carried by Albert The Great, a son of Go For Gin).
Unbridled’s Song can make a fancy, good mover…but some of his sons are (dam-influenced) downhill and not my type (Songandaprayer, for example). Storm Cats can be crazy athletic, and also just crazy, and tend to be bigger behind than in front. I don’t run away from Storm Cat, but I like to see something “stabilizing” in the pedigree, too (AP Indy, Pleasant Colony, Fappiano, etc). Stormy Atlantic is my favorite source of Storm Cat, he produces a very attractive, balanced horse (I’ve always thought they’d make nice hunters). Personally, I steer away from Giant’s Causeway (himself) as my experience with them was hot and unsettled, and other trusted reports from track friends, chiro, and vets, say they tend to be on the squirrelly side. YMMV.
Kittens Joy is nice enough, and some of his offspring are nice, some aren’t. They tend to be on the smaller, lighter side (why they didn’t sell well as yearlings for many years, until they started winning ALL the turf races). Many of them have a flat croup, a bit weaker-looking than my personal preference. I am open minded about them, I’ve seen some nice ones out there.
I really love Tiznow and what some of his sons are producing. I haven’t had the chance to get to know them from the saddle, but they are so well balanced and classy. I saw many Tiz Wonderfuls, and they were pretty consistently fancy, correct, with a big smooth walk. Shame he was sent overseas. Keeping an eye on Gemologist.
As you’d expect with his big stud fee, Medaglia D’Oro makes some yummy, athletic horses (usually far out of reach from sport). Pretty good front end, good hind ends, with typical lovely El Prado balance and good movement. MDO sons are on my radar, but I haven’t scouted them thoroughly enough yet to list them.
I like Holy Bull and his descendants, including Macho Uno and Flashy Bull. Athletic, durable, good-minded horses with a good jump. Two Punch is much the same, I particularly like him on the damside.
I am NOT a fan of Indian Charlie and In Excess. While he threw a long, sloping shoulder, it usually tied in too low for my taste, and coupled with a large hind end it created a downhill feel. I know Uncle Mo is the hot racing sire right now, but from a sport perspective, I’m very skeptical of him as of yet. I’ve seen many many Adios Charlies down here in FL, and I’ve yet to like any of them: small, plain, downhill, chunky-butts.
I also am very lukewarm about Elusive Quality and sons. Nice hind end, good walk, but low shoulder and just not my cup of tea. I’ve found similar in other Gone West stallions, like Grand Slam. They can be attractive, but not uphill enough for me. I’ve seen some nice Speightstown horses, but I’ve seen some downhill ones, too.
This post is already getting too long, so I’ll stop here. I’ve left out a lot, but this was just off the top of my head.
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[QUOTE=EventerAJ;9023328]
Yes, he is still intact. He’s easier to manage than many geldings and very professional away from home (he LOVES going to horse shows!). The plan is to move up to Training level later this year, and once he proves himself in competition (Prelim?) we’ll think about marketing him to outside mares. I’m not too worried about him mentally juggling breeding and training, so much as I feel it is important to have a solid competition record before promoting him to other mare owners. .
I intend to breed my UL TB broodmare to him this season, and perhaps buy/lease a few more mares for him when I can, to get a few foals on the ground. He's a very classy horse, as his pedigree would suggest, and such a deep family isn't often available for sport horse breeding. I've been studying what other Bernardini sons are producing at the sales, and so far they seem to be consistently nice (not surprising, as the AP Indy sireline is pretty dominant, in good ways).I never intended to have a mature stallion in my barn, but I love having him around. "Kind" is the best word to describe him-- he's a very kind, thoughtful horse with good intentions, along with his power and athletic ability.[/QUOTE]
Kind is just the word I would use for AP Indy kids. He is one of my favorites and I can tell that eye and shoulder anywhere – even when it is further back.
I’m glad you are not planning on gelding him, not that my opinion matters – I think there are too few Bernardini sons available for sport and IMHO I do see something very promising about several of the Bernardini horses I’ve met and/or worked with.
We had a client send a mare to a Malibu Moon son at Shamrock, Baltimore Bob, that I think looks pretty nice.
EventerAJ, what can you tell us about his history? He’s a 2009 whose only two starts were at Oaklawn in the spring of 2014. He got a 3rd in his first MSW race and came 6th 3 weeks later in an MSW and was lengths back in both, but then they stopped with him. You got him in 2016. That’s a very unusual record for any race horse. Any reason why they waited so long to race him and what happened to him between his two starts and 2016?
I was told his breeders kept him to race and they are very considerate of their horses and don’t tend to push them early. He ran twice at Oaklawn, where he was spotted by a good trainer friend of mine at the track. He suffered a chip in an ankle after Oaklawn, and as it looked like he wouldn’t be a graded stakes horse, he kind of fell through the cracks and the original owners/breeders decided to stop on him and he found his way to my friend, his current owner (a race trainer). She took the chip out, kept him for a while at her farm or with her string at the training center, not sure if she wanted to try racing him or retire him. She sent him to me last year (in FL) to get him fit and see if I thought he would make a sport horse or if she should possibly try racing him again. (He has such a nice pedigree, if he could get a semi-decent race record he’d be worth standing somewhere.)
We agreed racing him wasn’t in the cards, but she is very happy to see him in his career as a sport horse. She still owns him, and has final say on his future plans. (She is also the race trainer who had San Silvestro (now All Aboard), my 2-star horse.)
Saketini’s race record is not typical of a horse his quality, but he had owners who cared for him and didn’t want to push him or run him if he wasn’t ready and likely to win. The ankle that had the chip carries a tiny bit of filling, and he has an old splint, but that does not bother him in any way. The rest of his joints are cold and tight, and he has good feet. I’m not worried about his future soundness, as it relates to his performance or his progeny.
I agree on the tiznow’s and foals coming from Tiznow sons. I have viewed several videos of youngster in training online and they are tremendous movers, built uphill, beautiful neck sets, powerful motors in their hind ends. I have to be honest that I have never seen a TB move like these and they could give any warmblood a run for their money in the dressage arena. They do appear to be a little hot as youngsters but they sure do look promising.
I had the pleasure of meeting and seeing Tiznow in person before he started hitting it big. he is an impressive and beautiful stallion. He is a little butt high but he has a great set of legs and is very balanced.
Speightstown is a beautiful stallion too but he struck me more as a QH type. He too, is built downhill. He is a very powerful and broad stallion and one look at his head and you’d think he was a QH stallion. Has anyone seen him in in his western tack?? I’m surprised no one has thought he was a QH yet LOL
Both had very nice temperaments; where very gentle and laid back. they were not nippy or pushy and genuinely seemed to like having someone fussing over them.
For the Bernardini lovers; there are some nice sons available out there. I know that pretty much every bernardini prospect that started a 2nd career; people seem to really love them
ZAHADOOM: by Bernardini out of a Fortunate Prospect x Dixieland Band mare. He stands at Prestige Stallions in FL.
Other stallions at Prestige that are interesting:
TELLING: AP INdy x Deputy Minister x Secretariat. There is a video of him here; FANCY mover! He is a nice, wide, strong stallion; looks very much like Secretariat lineage in his head and neck. He was a winnder on dirt and turf and raced until he was 7. He’s a hardy horse.
https://www.prestigestallions.com/stallions/telling/
Prestige has some lovely stallions and also some lovely videos of their stallions
Check out BURNING ROMA by Rubiano (Fappiano). His dam is by Overskate out of a Native Dancer mare. He’s a fancy mover (there is trot clips on this video). He has a super wide chest and a fancy dished head. uphill build. He is an older stallion, born in 1998 so hes almost 20 in his video!
Follow this link and video is in bottom right: https://www.prestigestallions.com/stallions/burning-roma/
KIBBUTZNKI> fans of El Prado might like him. Hes a son of El Prado out of a mare by Friendly Lover x Conquistador Cielo. He also stands at Prestige in Florida. Hes a very balanced stallion, not frail, big butt. Looks more like the hunter type in his conformation photo. He does look a tad long in his rear pasterns but the photo of him isn’t the greatest. Might be worth a look at him in FL
https://www.prestigestallions.com/stallions/kibbutznik/
DONERAILE COURT> By Seattle Slew! His dam was by Stop the Music out of a Dunce (Tom Fool) mare. Seattle Slew is key in any TB sport pedigree and he is highly regarded for hardy, sound horses.
He is 21 years old but still looks great for his age in his photos. He has great bone. With a beautiful neck set and pretty head typical of Seattle Slew. I think his stud fee is under $1000 and he might be the last seattle slew son available?
https://www.prestigestallions.com/stallions/doneraile-court/
What does everyone think of Gicaomo’s as sport horse prospects/ Holy bull has been covered here as a great source for sport. His dam is by the great Stop The Music out of a Tyrant (Bold Ruler) mare.
HIs fee is 2500 for 2017 standing at Oakhurst (lovely farm)
http://oakhurstequine.com/new-page/
SLEWS SAGA also stands at Oakhurst. Seattle slew x Southern Halo x Halo. Dam is by Leloy by Bold Bidder. Handsome stallion with a nice pedigree. His fee is $1000 LFG
http://www.pedigreequery.com/slews+saga
http://oakhurstequine.com/slew-saga/
One Bernardini son that I really admire is To Honor and Serve. His stud fee at 10k is too high for my taste or any sport horse breeder but he is really lovely
http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/stallions/165746/to-honor-and-serve
They have a lovely video of him on their website:
http://gainesway.com/stallions/to-honor-and-serve/
Looking forward to seeing his foals off the track
Is this about TB stallions for eventing breeding?
A lot of people think not a lot of TB blood is needed for eventing anymore.
I am not sure what others think of Curlin as a sport horse sire but I have always admired his balance. I do really like his son,
BISMARCK TULLIO: By Curlin (Smart Strike x Deputy Minister) and his dam was by Awesome Again x Hawkster. His dam is a 1/2 to Afleet Alex.
http://journeymanstallions.com/bismark-tullio/
FURY KAPCORI also stands at Journeyman. Impressive uphill build and neck set on him. He is a son of Tiznow for the Tiznow fans. his dam is by Go For Gin and out of a Crafty Prospector mare.
Would like to see him on the move:
http://journeymanstallions.com/fury-kapcori/
KOHZAN by Distorted Humor (FOrty NIner x Danzig) out of a mare by AP Indy then a Lyphard mare. I’d like to see more photos and at least some video of him on the farm but he is a very nice, well balanced, good shouldered stallion
http://journeymanstallions.com/khozan/
WINSLOW HOMER: I know some are reserved on Unbridled’s song but here is an Unbridle’s Song with a tremendous front end, neck set. He’s got nice heel on his feet and a little shorter pastern. Really impressive individual. HIs dam is by Summer Squal and out of a RAHY mare. Always loved the RAHY’s. There are several photos of this stallion online from a youngster until now and he is impressive in every photo. There are photos of his offspring in his gallery, they are built much like him; nice uphill build, good neck set, balanced, good legs $2500
http://journeymanstallions.com/winslow-homer/
http://www.pedigreequery.com/winslow+homer2
Since i cant edit; There is a video of KHOZAN in his gallery. He is beautiful at just the walk, big free flowing walk from the shoulder.
MOore for the Bernardini lovers:
BIONDETTI: Bernardini x Lyphard http://www.woodfordtb.com/horses/biondetti.html
CURRENCY SWAP: HIs sire, High Cotton has been discussed in this thread as a definite sire to like. HIs dam is by Pine Bluff (Danzig). He is a bit sharp in the shoulder on photo $2500
http://www.woodfordtb.com/horses/currency-swap.html
I really like AMIRAS PRINCE at Pleasant Acres in FL. Hes a turf horse. Sired by Teofilo (IRE) (Galileo (Saddlers Wells) x Danehill) and out of a mare by Green Desert (Danzig) whos out of a mare by Affirmed. There is a great video of him on their website; he is a beautiful mover (watch the entire video to see his trot (super flashy!!)) and super correct and straight in the front end. For those who like the turf breds from Europe; here is one.
http://pleasantacresstallions.com/index.php/stallions/amiras-prince/
How about TB for showjumping?
I have listed show jumping sires in previous posts within this thread
Amira’s Prince is wonderful. Stud Fee is 5K and the farm probably wouldn’t breed to non-race mares. But you never know.
Does anyone have experience with off-the-track Aikenite offspring? He’s at Calumet and his stud fee is too high for sporthorse breeding at $5,000. Son of Yes It’s True with a couple of Bay Ronald lines coming in on the dam side. And from his photos he’s stunning.
Also I think Marsh Side should be mentioned in this thread. By Gone West out of a Pleasant Colony/Stage Door Johnny mare, ran in really long races - like 12-14F if memory serves. I think he’s standing in NY in the $2-3K range. Also a generally nice-looking horse.
I have a yearling filly by Marsh Side, out of my Sky Mesa mare. Super correct, lovely moving filly. We bred her to race, but figure if that doesn’t pan out, we’ve got a lovely sport horse. MS stands at Dutchess Views Farm in NY, stud fee is $2500. Here’s a walking video of him (plus links to videos of some other NY stallions) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s2XCE90Wp_U
Thank you so much for the kind words about A Fine Romance. I appreciate it so much.
As most people here may know, I lost A Fine Romance in June of this past year, at the age of 25. I was with him from his first breath to his last.
He was most certainly race bred. I bred him myself to be a racehorse.
Here is his pedigree for those who may not have been familiar with him:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/a+fine+romance
A.P.Indy has been mentioned many times in this thread, for good reason.He is a favourite of mine too. A.P Indy shares the same dam line as A Fine Romance’s sire, Brave Shot (GB). API’s dam Weekend Surprise is from the same very important female family - descending from Missy Baba, and Gay Missile, who is AFR’s granddam. Both A.P Indy and AFR are inbred to Nasrullah and Princequillo (4x5, 4x5) and (4x4 and 5x5) respectively.
A Fine Romance has one of the strongest TB sporthorse pedigrees, with names like Royal Charger, Turn-to, Bold Bidder (his grandsire), Sir Gaylord, My Babu relatively upclose.
He was also ISR/OldNA approved, as well as CSHA and Cdn Trakehner.
And was also a Guest Stallion at Hilltop Farm.
He has sired numerous UL horses, including Advanced eventers and Grand Prix Jumpers. He is the grandsire of a horse who competed in the Pan Ams in Dressage.
In 2016 one of his daughters, A Little Romance, competed on the Cdn Eventing Team in the Olympics at Rio.
As you can imagine, this was a proud but emotional time for me coming so soon after his death.
A Little Romance https://www.facebook.com/119405697399/photos/a.120097717399.110941.119405697399/10154562285917400/?type=3&theater
Ridden by Jessica Phoenix, o/b Don and Anita Leschied
He has been very prepotent for his type, and has as consistently passed on his strong topline, deep hip, athleticism, jumping ability,wonderful canter and gallop, and kind, intelligent temperament.
At this point he has two young stallion sons. One is a WBx who is beginning his stud career in 2017, the other may begin breeding in 2018.
It is my hope that these important TB lines will be carried on not only through these sons, but also through his numerous daughters.
Landmark’s Ginger Rogers, o/b Jacqueline Mars, ridden by Lauren Kieffer, competing at Intermediate
A First Romance, 3*eventer breeder Dr Cynthia Pyper, owner/rider Selena O’Hanlon
https://www.facebook.com/119405697399/photos/a.121353542399.111618.119405697399/10151424192337400/?type=3&theater
My Romance/Southbound - Advanced eventer and winning GP Jumper
breeder: Me
https://www.facebook.com/119405697399/photos/a.121353542399.111618.119405697399/10150900068747400/?type=3&theater
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