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Sporthorse TB breeding

Sport Horse Breeding
#41

Exactly. Because they have the alternative of sourcing a 3 or 4 year old, coming right off the track, who has JC papers. So the economic concept of price competition due to the “substitution effect” drives down the price of a TB foal bred purely for sport. If both parents do not have very unique and highly sought after bloodlines (the Twist lines come to mind again), or if one or both parents don’t have performance records at very high levels of sport (Coconut Grove is a TB stallion who comes to mind… or a TB mare who has competed in eventing at Intermediate or higher…)… it’s hard to come up with a situation in which it makes common sense to breed a TB for sport for anything other than 100% personal reasons. And you probably need to go into that prepared that if you sell the foal, there will be a negative ROI.

I’m not trying to be negative… I actually am very pro sport horse TBs from a breeding perspective… but this is what I perceive to be the reality.

3 Likes
#42

I don’t have enough knowledge about KWPN or BWP to comment on their rules. I do know how it works for registries that follow German Breeding law though… the registries which are truly “open book” and do not have specific pedigree requirements are the ones you can register a full TB with if it has 2 fully approved TB parents. So Westfalen (which is essentially now a registry that RPSI and a few other smaller older German registries have been all absorbed by), GOV, and Rheinlander (ARS is the Rheinlander registry breeders in America can go through). Hanoverian and Holsteiner and Trakehner all have certain pedigree requirements to one degree or another that must be satisfied in order to register a foal with them. I believe you can use an approved 100% TB sire or Dam and get a registrable foal… but not both for the same foal.

As far as options amongst North American registries… you could also register a 100% TB via OldNA, or CSHA. I don’t know about Canadian Warmblood or any of the various American Warmblood registries. I actually have a favorable opinion of CSHA as a registry based on what a few friends have shared with me about their personal experiences with it… and depending on the quality of the individual horse, and how many verified generations of it’s pedigree have NO grade horses, I inspected horses, or horses with an unknown pedigree, it is possible to conceivably get a stallion or mare who has CSHA as a birth registry approved for breeding (and potentially licensed) by a major registry. KWPN for sure. It will be an uphill challenge… it it can be done.

I have spent a LOT of time trying to learn about various options and how the rules work :winkgrin: And once you take into account the vet expenses, registry related to AI, membership fees, time and expense taking mares and foals to an inspection, etc… you end up realizing YET AGAIN that sourcing a nice 3 to 4 yr old TB coming off the track who moves well and has decent conformation and is sound, and already broke is a FAR more cost effective path. :frowning:

Is what it is. I do like it when these threads pop up on COTH though, because I do want to keep track of the few good full TB stallions around who are in NA and options for sport breeding. But I am a Warmblood mare owner. Not coming at it as a TB mare owner.

#43

With this you keep going around in circles. Off the track Thoroughbreds that were bred to race we know nothing about with regard to sport ability. A Thoroughbred tried and tested for sport ability gets very expensive and people do not want to spend more than they pay for an OTTB. But that OTTB has not been tested for sport… Etc. etc. We either let go of the thought that everything associated with Thoroughbred has to be dirt cheap or we have to accept that we know nothing about the sport ability of race bred Thoroughbreds and only after throwing a lot of money at an OTTB do we know anything about it’s sport ability.

4 Likes
#44

You’re not being “negative”…just stating the facts…we no longer breed pure TB’s!!

1 Like
#45

Agreed! Not ALL TB’s are suitable for “sport” purposes!! And how many OTTB sale pictures are of a TB wearing a LIP CHAIN??? Really?? Not quiet enough to have his picture taken??? Great sport prospect!!

#46

I don’t really consider a lip-chain to signify anything.

Some race shedrows have all their horses outfitted in chains, some don’t. I think in some shedrows it functions the same way a martingale might: it’s not doing anything if you aren’t needing it, but it’s there if you need it.

“Racing manners” are very different than the manners you’d expect in a boarding barn… often times, the method of extraction can be more traumatic than the extraction – meaning, with these extremely fit, very young, barely trained 1200lb animals fed rocket-fuel, that the quickest/safest/most efficient way of handling is usually best… which doesn’t leave a lot of times to enforce or install manners.

I also don’t think how they act on the track, or jog in hand, is a reliable indication of their personality either. They’re fed crazy amounts of grain, stalled almost 24/7 when in training for the most part, are babies, and worked hard. Of course they’re not going to be super quiet.

Here’s the quietest TB I’ve owned… being jogged in a chain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L06VuL10n1M

He clearly didn’t need the chain and his jogger was going faster than he was :lol: Went and saw him the next day, and took him home.

BNT’s horses at the top of the sport, also need chains sometimes. When I was a WS for one, a few in his string needed chains over the nose, or lip chains, especially when trimming. You’d think 4/5* horses would have this all down but that’s not always the case. One thing that for sure is not expected at the top level of all sports consistently, is very good manners. A lot of trainers/handlers just explain it away as a “quirk” of that particular horse, to be difficult to handle and require a chain. Plus, they go through so many WSs, have so many different handlers, and often have full days (between U/S work, walking on eurocizer, turnout, etc) that the last thing on anyone’s agenda is a “good citizen” session.

Regarding OTTB sales and chains, the other thing is to consider often these pictures are snapped by volunteers who A. have a very busy schedule and B. trainers, who also have very busy schedules. They don’t have time to prim and prep the horse before snapping pics and taking the listing… Most horses are pulled out of the stall, several pictures taken, jogged in hand, and then put back. Sometimes trainers even see you taking another horse’s info down, and pull out their horse and ask you to take their info too. It’s not always very well planned, and it’s rarely done at leisure/with a lot of time to spare.

4 Likes
#47

It’s pretty shortsighted to judge a racehorse for wearing a lipchain. In some barns, it’s standard procedure for every horse, from bathing, to blacksmith, to trailer loading, etc. At least 75% of 2yos will wear a lipchain when you view them at a sale (OBS, etc). Many horses need them for safety at the track, easier to handle a keg of dynamite that way. But take the horse home, off the track, and horse is totally different and quiet. Getting sale photos of (cheaper) track TBs is usually a disruption to the morning routine, and grooms/trainers are in a hurry to get it over with. Chances might be better that the horse will stand better, quickly, and jog nicely with a lipchain, so trainer and volunteer photographer don’t have to spend an hour jigging around and upsetting the rest of the barn aisle. (Horses jogging out in the roadway can get others riled up nearby.) I don’t read too much into the horse’s temperament if it seems the hijinks are product of 15lbs of sweet feed, alfalfa and stall confinement with only 20min of daily exercise.

My late, great, amazing minded, 2* winning OTTB was obnoxious at his track vetting and needed a lip chain to jog. Don’t think he ever wore a lip chain again when I took him home, and was happy and confident in all places.

5 Likes
#48

Not entirely true. You don’t know 100% that a sportbred horse has ability and aptitude either, until that horse is proven and going well. A sport bred TB has the advantage of Not Racing, meaning less risk of physical or mental wear and tear than a horse who came off the track. A sport bred TB out of an Advanced level event mare is no guarantee to be more talented than a really nice OTTB with no issues. Therein lies the quandary for TB breeders like me. I breed, and shop at the track, because I know pedigrees and type well enough to find the horses i like, who may have a decent chance at eventing success.

2 Likes
#49

But why do people often pay more for an unproven warmblood than they pay for an unproven Thoroughbred? Because they know what their parents did and their grandparents did in sport?

#50

In defence of TBs, they are tested, just not in show jumping or dressage. A race horse has to stay sound, physically and mentally, cope with the rigours of training, deal with the immense physical stress of racing over considerable distance, multiple times, during their racing career. They have to be brave, tough, intelligent and competitive. This has been the case for the past 400 years.

In the UK the market for an unproven TB is far greater than for an unproven WB because racing is a big industry and it has money in it. In continental Europe, flat racing is very much a minority sport and jump racing almost non-existent outside France.

3 Likes
#51

Because it trots pretty. The WB is bred to move with natural elasticity, more so than an average TB. There is the perception that TBs are hot, crazy and unsound. There is the elitist factor of having a Euro import, that implies a higher level of status or quality. At least in this country. Law of supply and demand, too… racehorses are plentiful and cheap, and many of the available ones are very average, not superstars, so common perception again implies that WBs are better. Many riders in the US are clueless about pedigrees and know little about what a WB’s sire/dam specifically accomplished…but It Came On A Plane so it must be worth more.

I don’t deny that finding a competitive upper level TB is difficult. But those are rare animals of any breed, and I have more faith that my TB will still be game and galloping at the end of a big, long xc course.

3 Likes
#52

I also see it that way but I was thinking about the show jumping part. The name Cornet Obolensky has a different ring to it than the names of Thoroughbreds.

#53

Why do people pay such sums for these foals? Because there is a big chance that those foals will turn out to be very good show jumping horses. The same goes for racehorse foals. People pay a lot of money when the parents of a foal were very good racehorses. But it does not say anything about their ability to jump.
https://www.prinsjesdag.eu/prinsjesdag-showjumping-foals-go-for-an-average-almost-14000-euro-gemiddeld/?lang=en

#54

Well, what about the TBs bred for turf and steeplechase? I would say they are pretty expensive, and pretty well proven to jump… Their stud fees cost more than most WB foals alive, let alone WB stud fees.

Not really interested in making this another TB vs WB debate, but I did laugh at the “It Came On A Plane” comment… oh, it is very true and not just with WBs… I had a really nice TB years ago, that was born in the US, but part of his pedigree had names born in IRE or GB. He was actually USA-bred through and through (DLB on top, Mr P on bottom once you looked further back). It just so happened that his recent ancestors were born across pond during shuttling to meet other stallions. It always cracked me up when he was introduced as an Irish or British Thoroughbred, as if that was some fantastical thing that cut him above the rest. I mean, Dixieland Band was his grandfather so he was as American as you could get… Really nice horse, though, but not at all rare: tons of horses like him, people just don’t realize that TBs can be nice movers and freaky jumpers, too. He wasn’t raced, which definitely helped him in the long run, I think - since he came to me with almost zero physical baggage.

4 Likes
#55

Not many steeplechase horses being bred in the US, most of them are repurposed OTTBs as well. There actually aren’t a whole lot of turf horses being bred either. There just isn’t any money in breeding them on purpose when you can repurpose ones that didn’t pan out for their intended purpose or in some cases go on to a second career as a maiden steeplechase horse following a very successful flat race career.

1 Like
#56

Willesdon and Elles are not in the US which is why I brought up steeplechase, since it’s much more common there. :encouragement:

We don’t have much here. My state’s only turf race (and race track!) just closed for good. :no:

1 Like
#57

Seriously?

Some WB books go back to the mid 1700s, having separate lines for riding almost all the way back. Educate yourself on WB breeding. I recommend this book:
https://horsesdaily.com/article/maki…ttard-gribaldi

WBs aren’t just “sport horses”. There are separate lines for dressage and show jumping. Have been for generations. You simply cannot discard this history. All the years TB breeders have been building towards great racers, WB breeders have been building towards great sport horses.

Even a sport horse TB was born of centuries of RACING lines. It just happens to be good at a secondary career. Can it reliably pass along “secondary career” genetics?

There’s probably a Hanoverian out there who could win a race or two. Let’s throw out the breed rules and say he does. Is there a TB breeder out there who will have even a passing interest in him as a race stallion? Nope.

Yes, the WBs have some TB in them, but these were almost all English TBs which are generally larger with heavier bone than American TBs.

There have been some excellent American TB sport horse stallions in the past 20 years for eventing or the occasional show jumper, but most are retired or sadly gone (Fred, Coconut Grove, etc).

And the sports have changed. The winning TB hunter from 1985 wouldn’t even be in the running in Wellington these days.

Breeding any horse is a crapshoot. Even the best to the best makes duds. But, the history helps stack the odds in your favor. Fewer duds. Better quality duds.

Will I pay extra to stack the odds in my favor? Yes. Yes I will. And so will anyone serious about being competitive today in sport, especially dressage, hunters, or show jumping.

1 Like
#58

I agree but I know most people say that steeplechasing has nothing to do with showjumping.

#59

Reread the conversation. You and Elles are both saying the same point. Elles asked a rhetorical question, may have been hard to tell from their text alone, but context might help more. :yes:

Re: the bold…

English TBs are not generally larger or with heavier bone. That is a myth I’d love to see put to rest. Certain TB lines are heavier or with more bone (example: Giant’s Causeway, Danehill, etc) but the breed as a whole is drawing from the same genetic pool…

There is a difference in type based on the type of surface raced upon (dirt vs turf, steeplechase, etc), and USA does have primarily dirt tracks, but phenotypically, there is not a discernible difference between English and USA TBs – especially with all the shuttling of stallions thrown in.

Many of England’s best TBs are from USA/CAN lines… Look at Sadler’s Wells… Same goes for AUS … they have Danehill… who was USA.

I will concede, the UK & GER has one line I am very envious of that is not very prominent in the US, and that is Ahonoora… his get are simply not competitive or thriving here - but obviously, made huge names for themselves in eventing and turf/steeple chasing across the pond.

If we are talking about the TBs responsible for developing the WB, they are in USA TBs too, just very far back. They both drew from practically the same stock (Bay Ronald, for instance). Not heavy or thick-boned stock by any means.

1 Like
#60

The Grand National might not carry black type, but is a notable race Hogan is keen to add to the stud’s list of achievements for the season in the hope that it will help him over the line.

He might not aim to breed jumping horses but it comes as something of a surprise that Hogan has not bred a Grand National steeple winner, as many of Sir Tristram’s and Zabeel’s offspring have proven highly proficient jumpers.

Last year’s steeple winner Mookta Heights was out of a Sir Tristram mare and the 2003 winner, Lance Corporal, was by Sir Tristram sire Military Plume.

Sir Tristram’s son Hip Flask won the 1992 Grand National Hurdle, while Zabeel’s sons Marlborough and Zabenz have also taken out the event. But Hogan says it’s not just for racing that they are sought.

“We had a steady stream of inquiries about sons of Sir Tristram and now Zabeel from the showjumping and eventing world, both here and in the northern hemisphere. They make very good jumpers,” he said.

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