Staying safe around a "Parelli" .. update post 147

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8641500]
right hand is about 3’ down the rope…left hand holds the excess. I never lead from the very end.

FWIW: I put my horse on the longe this morning for a quick check (farrier was out and barn staff said she looked short). When I stopped her, I had her yield her haunches to me and then I backed her up from about 15’ away with no wiggling of the longe line or anything. Just a finger point. She backed and then stood. I brought her in a few steps and then asked her to go back again, which she politely did.

As I mentioned, I started down the NH path because of my first horse. He was a reactive sort, but his ground manners were amazing. He would spook, but he would never enter your space when doing so. I did have a period of having to hand walk him and he did some lovely airs above the ground…but it was all outside of my space and I was never in harms way. Now, he did run into someone else, but it was her fault for the situation she put him in.[/QUOTE]

This ^^^ illustrates how properly training your horse will keep you safe, even if your horse “blows.” The horse might throw in a buck or kick, but he has enough respect to stay out of your personal space. Here is a quick video on it as well -
How To Not Get Run Over By Your Horse On The Ground
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4K1LGexTQc

IMHO, the horse needs to be at a 45 degree angle behind your shoulder no closer than 3 feet, preferably 5 feet away, for the handler to be safe.

When the horse is 3 feet or closer to you and at your shoulder, it only takes one quick step for him to get in front of you and you are within kicking distance. You are LEADING the horse, get in front of him. He should follow and stay out of your personal space. When you stop, he stops. When you turn, he turns. He is watching you and paying attention to you because you are literally his LEADER.

In a situation where the horse understandably has behavior issues, such as hand walking due to an injury, I would absolutely give that horse ace to keep the handlers safe and the horse from reinjuring himself. A horse on stall rest should still be handled regularly to remind him of his manners. When I get a tb in for lay up, they all quickly learn to move away from me in the stall with a finger point or light touch and they will drop their heads to the ground when I touch the poll. It’s surprising how much less biting and kicking I encounter when I groom them once they’ve learned this.

[goneriding24]

I haven’t read all the responses, skipped to the last page.

All I can say is good luck with the mind blown horses. I’ve inadvertantly (sp?) bought a couple of them a few years ago, will never, ever, ever buy another one again. I am pretty good at bringing a horse back around to sanity, not these horses, their minds are shot. I was not willing to get hurt or killed to work with them to undo the damage.

Now, when I read a potential buy has been trained using that method, I stop reading and move on.

The strange thing, Pep used to be a decent rider (haven’t seen him astride in years, sort of knew him eons ago) and what he is currently selling, two different beasts from what I read and accidentally see, not to mention my experiences with these trained horses. I think the problem is he doesn’t teach how to read a horse, only to plow into the horse, horse should deal with it, end of story.

This post is neither here nor there, just good luck dealing with them.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=aliceo;8654049]
you don’t understand physics very well. a loose lead takes away the horse’s power. a tight lead gives him leverage. same with walking a dog.[/QUOTE]

Actually, a loose lead gives the horse the opportunity to build force before the leader realizes it and increases the pull/power which makes it is easier for the horse to get loose.

There is a sweet spot between too loose and too tight that the leader should be holding the rope. This sweet spot allows the horse the freedom to follow without the leader pulling and allows the leader to feel that the horse is going to do something before they’ve created the speed/angles/power to easily get away.

Same with walking a dog. If the dog want to run off and the leash is loose enough that they can build the speed before it becomes taut, there is no holding them. You have to be able to stop the forward motion before there is power behind it.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8654825]
This ^^^ illustrates how properly training your horse will keep you safe, even if your horse “blows.” The horse might throw in a buck or kick, but he has enough respect to stay out of your personal space. Here is a quick video on it as well -
How To Not Get Run Over By Your Horse On The Ground
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4K1LGexTQc

.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for posting that video. The clinician in it says something that really resonated with me. He says that the people in his example never handled their horses without saying to them (in effect) “Make sure you know where I am.” And that horses find this very comforting because it’s how they interact with each other.

I never really thought of it like that, but yes, each member of the herd knowing the whereabouts of the others would be absolutely critical for their mutual survival, wouldn’t it. :yes:

[QUOTE=RugBug;8655278]Actually, a loose lead gives the horse the opportunity to build force before the leader realizes it and increases the pull/power which makes it is easier for the horse to get loose.

There is a sweet spot between too loose and too tight that the leader should be holding the rope. This sweet spot allows the horse the freedom to follow without the leader pulling and allows the leader to feel that the horse is going to do something before they’ve created the speed/angles/power to easily get away.

Same with walking a dog. If the dog want to run off and the leash is loose enough that they can build the speed before it becomes taut, there is no holding them. You have to be able to stop the forward motion before there is power behind it.[/QUOTE]

Actually, my border collie Faith jerked me completely out of my shoes once, doing just as you describe.:lol: Since we’re talking physics, it was a perfect illustration of momentum equalling mass times velocity. I had her on a fifty-foot lunge line, out on the front lawn, while I had a nice G&T and a chat with DH. Apparently Faith got the zoomies at one end of the lunge, and since I wasn’t paying attention, got all the way to the other end, building speed all the way, with me still holding fast to the handloop. I saw DH’s face look just like this: :eek: right before I went airborne.:lol: Her mass may’ve been only a third of mine, but her velocity more than made up for it. :yes:

But that’s the key to leading from the front - just as you expect the horse to always know where you are, you must always, always know just where your horse is.:yes:

And you need to constantly check in with your horse. When I’m just leading from the ring to the paddock, I’ll always throw in a few stops (remember playing one-two-three RED LIGHT as a kid? Like that. Only horses are way better at it than humans. They don’t need the one-two-three part and can get themselves stopped simultaneously with you); changes of pace; changes of direction; etc. My horse knows that he can’t ever let the slack go out of the leadrope. With slack in the leadrope, he can’t put any force on me.

[kinscem]

There are a lot of winter season people with horses “trained” like this visiting here in Florida. Most of them never walk past a local cow pen much less get to their trail ride!
Their horses end up hanging out in round pens or small paddocks all winter and then the owners take them back to OH or IA or where ever they come from. Fun

[RHdobes563]

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8654825]
When the horse is 3 feet or closer to you and at your shoulder, it only takes one quick step for him to get in front of you and you are within kicking distance. You are LEADING the horse, get in front of him. He should follow and stay out of your personal space. When you stop, he stops. When you turn, he turns. He is watching you and paying attention to you because you are literally his LEADER.[/QUOTE]

When my father joined the ‘Horse Cavalry’, he was taught by VERY good horsemen to either walk very CLOSE around the rear of a horse or very FAR. Obviously, in the latter case, you would be too far away to get kicked. In the first, IF the horse kicked, it would be more of a shove than a kick.

Try it with a friend; have them stand shoulder to shoulder with you and have him/her attempt to punch you. Then (if you’re brave), stand a few feet away and tell him/her try it again. Which hurts more?

My father learned a lot in boot camp, first and foremost, the horse’s comfort and care came first. Even when dealing with Remounts. (If you don’t know what these are, “google”.) When my father’s saddle girth broke once during a training ride, an officer took the saddle and told my father to walk his horse back to the base. After the whole horse column disappeared out of sight, my father thought, ‘what the heck?’ and swung onto the horse, bareback.

AND THEY WERE OFF!

My father clung on for dear life as his barely broke mount attempted to catch up with the rest. That including jumping what he called dry gulches(?). When they got back to the barn, the sergeant in charge told my shaken father to get off the horse and walk and cool him off before the officers saw them.

(Yeah, I realize the story about my father has little to do with the whole thing, but as a horse crazy girl, I’ve cherished every story he had about his brief time with the Horse Cavalry in Texas. He was transferred to the Mechanized Cavalry when he was sent overseas.)

Oh, and I still have his brown Cavalry boots…

[aliceo]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8655278]
Actually, a loose lead gives the horse the opportunity to build force before the leader realizes it and increases the pull/power which makes it is easier for the horse to get loose.

There is a sweet spot between too loose and too tight that the leader should be holding the rope. This sweet spot allows the horse the freedom to follow without the leader pulling and allows the leader to feel that the horse is going to do something before they’ve created the speed/angles/power to easily get away.

Same with walking a dog. If the dog want to run off and the leash is loose enough that they can build the speed before it becomes taut, there is no holding them. You have to be able to stop the forward motion before there is power behind it.[/QUOTE]

note the text i put in bold: before the leader realizes it.

this is key. the leader has to be paying attention. the leader has to be able to feel what is coming through the rope and practice the proper response before it is needed. if you can’t feel what is coming through your lead rope, get a better rope, like a yachting rope. it will help your horse understand what you are communicating better, too.

slack is power. you can use that power, or your horse can use that power. you can use that power, or your dog can use that power.

the horse and the dog do not get the upper hand with me because i am always paying attention.

think about walking a dog who is always pulling on the leash. with the leash taut, the dog always knows right where you are. also, you have zero leverage, he has all the leverage.

now think about walking a dog on a slack leash. the dog doesn’t know how much slack he has. therefore, you have the leverage.

if your dog starts to take the slack out of the leash, and you turnabout and walk in the opposite direction, and he isn’t paying attention to you and doesn’t follow you–who is going to get the brunt of that turnabout? not you–the dog. and the dog quickly learns that if he isn’t paying attention to you, surprising things can happen. but you can’t surprise him with a tight leash.

similarly, with the horse. if you are using a rope training halter (which i always do), and the slack comes out of that lead, the horse is getting a correction. he quickly learns to leave the lead slack. if you keep it taut, you are correcting him without any release. and he can yank you from here to kingdom come. which he will do, since you are restraining him and that makes him anxious.

but you must do proper lead work with the horse, from the ground, before he knows he’s better off with a slack lead and that he must respect your space. he should be following your movement, wherever you go, and yielding to you at all times. you take a step, he takes a step. you step back, he steps back. you walk into him, he moves out of your way. you lift the lead rope to ask him to walk around you and he does–without losing the slack.

so you see, there’s a bit more to this than just walking the horse with slack in the rope and with him behind. the safety of this practice depends on your skill, your powers of attention, your timing, and how well you have worked with your horse.

[roseymare]

[QUOTE=pAin’t_Misbehavin’;8655336]
Thank you for posting that video. The clinician in it says something that really resonated with me. He says that the people in his example never handled their horses without saying to them (in effect) “Make sure you know where I am.” And that horses find this very comforting because it’s how they interact with each other.

I never really thought of it like that, but yes, each member of the herd knowing the whereabouts of the others would be absolutely critical for their mutual survival, wouldn’t it. :yes:

Actually, my border collie Faith jerked me completely out of my shoes once, doing just as you describe.:lol: Since we’re talking physics, it was a perfect illustration of momentum equalling mass times velocity. I had her on a fifty-foot lunge line, out on the front lawn, while I had a nice G&T and a chat with DH. Apparently Faith got the zoomies at one end of the lunge, and since I wasn’t paying attention, got all the way to the other end, building speed all the way, with me still holding fast to the handloop. I saw DH’s face look just like this: :eek: right before I went airborne.:lol: Her mass may’ve been only a third of mine, but her velocity more than made up for it. :yes:

But that’s the key to leading from the front - just as you expect the horse to always know where you are, you must always, always know just where your horse is.:yes:

And you need to constantly check in with your horse. When I’m just leading from the ring to the paddock, I’ll always throw in a few stops (remember playing one-two-three RED LIGHT as a kid? Like that. Only horses are way better at it than humans. They don’t need the one-two-three part and can get themselves stopped simultaneously with you); changes of pace; changes of direction; etc. My horse knows that he can’t ever let the slack go out of the leadrope. With slack in the leadrope, he can’t put any force on me.[/QUOTE]

But I have problems with always being in ones head as well. Most horses don’t need these types reminders every time you lead them. Maybe your horse does and that is fine but there are people who just pick at their horses for no good reason and end up with problem horses. You have to know when to stop. The gurus know when but this is a difficult thing to teach.

[roseymare]

[QUOTE=aliceo;8655374]
note the text i put in bold: before the leader realizes it.

this is key. the leader has to be paying attention. the leader has to be able to feel what is coming through the rope and practice the proper response before it is needed. if you can’t feel what is coming through your lead rope, get a better rope, like a yachting rope. it will help your horse understand what you are communicating better, too.

slack is power. you can use that power, or your horse can use that power. you can use that power, or your dog can use that power.

the horse and the dog do not get the upper hand with me because i am always paying attention.

think about walking a dog who is always pulling on the leash. with the leash taut, the dog always knows right where you are. also, you have zero leverage, he has all the leverage.

now think about walking a dog on a slack leash. the dog doesn’t know how much slack he has. therefore, you have the leverage.

if your dog starts to take the slack out of the leash, and you turnabout and walk in the opposite direction, and he isn’t paying attention to you and doesn’t follow you–who is going to get the brunt of that turnabout? not you–the dog. and the dog quickly learns that if he isn’t paying attention to you, surprising things can happen. but you can’t surprise him with a tight leash.

similarly, with the horse. if you are using a rope training halter (which i always do), and the slack comes out of that lead, the horse is getting a correction. he quickly learns to leave the lead slack. if you keep it taut, you are correcting him without any release. and he can yank you from here to kingdom come. which he will do, since you are restraining him and that makes him anxious.

but you must do proper lead work with the horse, from the ground, before he knows he’s better off with a slack lead and that he must respect your space. he should be following your movement, wherever you go, and yielding to you at all times. you take a step, he takes a step. you step back, he steps back. you walk into him, he moves out of your way. you lift the lead rope to ask him to walk around you and he does–without losing the slack.

so you see, there’s a bit more to this than just walking the horse with slack in the rope and with him behind. the safety of this practice depends on your skill, your powers of attention, your timing, and how well you have worked with your horse.[/QUOTE]

I agree but still contend that this is a very very difficult thing to teach and many people do not ever learn this skill. In these peoples hands, horses do not do well with the techniques you are describing.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

[QUOTE=roseymare;8655393]
But I have problems with always being in ones head as well. Most horses don’t need these types reminders every time you lead them. Maybe your horse does and that is fine but there are people who just pick at their horses for no good reason and end up with problem horses. You have to know when to stop. The gurus know when but this is a difficult thing to teach.[/QUOTE]

Hm. I don’t think I’m picking at mine by asking him to follow my directions on the ground, anymore than I think I’m picking at him by asking him to follow my directions when I’m in the saddle. That’s an interesting perspective. Why do you perceive asking for changes of gait and direction on the ground as “picking”? How does this lead to a problem horse?

[roseymare]

Because there are times when a horses brain just needs to rest.
Since you have well behaved horses Ibthink that you instinctively know this and aren’t constantly asking something of them.
My point is that there are quite a few people out there with horses that have no idea how to read a horse and they do not learn it quickly enough to be able to implement the philosophies of BB or even PP(althpugh I hesitate to use his name in the same sentance as the first one) correctly.
People who get it get it people who don’t don’t and make miserable horse handlers.

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=roseymare;8655733]
Because there are times when a horses brain just needs to rest.
Since you have well behaved horses Ibthink that you instinctively know this and aren’t constantly asking something of them.
My point is that there are quite a few people out there with horses that have no idea how to read a horse and they do not learn it quickly enough to be able to implement the philosophies of BB or even PP(althpugh I hesitate to use his name in the same sentance as the first one) correctly.
People who get it get it people who don’t don’t and make miserable horse handlers.[/QUOTE]

Yeah no kidding.
There isn’t any set rule. What kind of horses are these, or what kind of inexperienced owners are we talking about? To have a debate on the best way to lead a horse, in case “he does something” I don’t get it.

I just lead my horses. Sometimes they walk beside me. But sometimes here isn’t room, so they lead behind. Sometimes I am leading two, even three. (Oh how dangerous! LOL)
I used to lead a string of up to six horses, tied head to tail.

If I am leading a colt, barely halter broke, I might do one thing.
If I have an old fart, I don’t worry about him.

The point is, you just keep track of them, wherever they are. If they are too close, you put your arm up or something. If they drag behind, you can get to their side and drive them up. It’s all just training by living they way they live every day.

Who are you people?

[aliceo]

[QUOTE=roseymare;8655401]
I agree but still contend that this is a very very difficult thing to teach and many people do not ever learn this skill. In these peoples hands, horses do not do well with the techniques you are describing.[/QUOTE]

well you can’t fix stupid. that’s about all there is to say. working with horses is lifelong learning. if people don’t want to learn and get better, nobody can help them. if they do want to learn and get better, then they will.

i don’t know what techniques you think there are that will keep stupid horse people safe around a horse, but as far as i can tell, there aren’t any.

[skyon]

[QUOTE=aliceo;8655934]
well you can’t fix stupid. that’s about all there is to say. working with horses is lifelong learning.
i don’t know what techniques you think there are that will keep stupid horse people safe around a horse, but as far as i can tell, there aren’t any.[/QUOTE]

Well…the contradictions of below are a start:

[QUOTE=RHdobes563;8655367]When my father joined the ‘Horse Cavalry’, he was taught by VERY good horsemen to either walk very CLOSE around the rear of a horse or very FAR. Obviously, in the latter case, you would be too far away to get kicked. In the first, IF the horse kicked, it would be more of a shove than a kick.
.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Palm Beach View Post

When the horse is 3 feet or closer to you and at your shoulder, it only takes one quick step for him to get in front of you and you are within kicking distance. You are LEADING the horse, get in front of him. He should follow and stay out of your personal space. When you stop, he stops. When you turn, he turns. He is watching you and paying attention to you because you are literally his LEADER.

For what it’s worth, I’m inclined to believe that type of cavalry rule wasn’t just US, and had to deal with lots of stupid.

[QUOTE=roseymare;8655733]Because there are times when a horses brain just needs to rest.
My point is that there are quite a few people out there with horses that have no idea how to read a horse and they do not learn it quickly enough to be able to implement the philosophies of BB or even PP(althpugh I hesitate to use his name in the same sentance as the first one) correctly.
People who get it get it people who don’t don’t and make miserable horse handlers.[/QUOTE]

Agree!

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=aliceo;8655934]
well you can’t fix stupid. that’s about all there is to say. working with horses is lifelong learning. if people don’t want to learn and get better, nobody can help them. if they do want to learn and get better, then they will.

i don’t know what techniques you think there are that will keep stupid horse people safe around a horse, but as far as i can tell, there aren’t any.[/QUOTE]

Well, I have some good friends that love their horses and take care of them really well, but they just don’t get it. They want to learn, but it just doesn’t click for them. These are highly intelligent people…but the “feel” just isn’t there …and never will be. Trying to teach them just doesn’t seem to work. They work around the horses in the ways they can be as safe as possible. Working with their horses isn’t always fun.

[roseymare]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8655987]
Well, I have some good friends that love their horses and take care of them really well, but they just don’t get it. They want to learn, but it just doesn’t click for them. These are highly intelligent people…but the “feel” just isn’t there …and never will be. Trying to teach them just doesn’t seem to work. They work around the horses in the ways they can be as safe as possible. Working with their horses isn’t always fun.[/QUOTE]

So true and these people need a simple plan to use around their horses. The traditional method is best for them.

[roseymare]

[QUOTE=aliceo;8655934]
well you can’t fix stupid. that’s about all there is to say. working with horses is lifelong learning. if people don’t want to learn and get better, nobody can help them. if they do want to learn and get better, then they will.

i don’t know what techniques you think there are that will keep stupid horse people safe around a horse, but as far as i can tell, there aren’t any.[/QUOTE]

The simple traditional method. Yes they may never have the kind of feel you have with your horse but for their safety and their horses simple is best.

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=RHdobes563;8655367]
When my father joined the ‘Horse Cavalry’, he was taught by VERY good horsemen to either walk very CLOSE around the rear of a horse or very FAR. Obviously, in the latter case, you would be too far away to get kicked. In the first, IF the horse kicked, it would be more of a shove than a kick.

Try it with a friend; have them stand shoulder to shoulder with you and have him/her attempt to punch you. Then (if you’re brave), stand a few feet away and tell him/her try it again. Which hurts more?

My father learned a lot in boot camp, first and foremost, the horse’s comfort and care came first. Even when dealing with Remounts. (If you don’t know what these are, “google”.) When my father’s saddle girth broke once during a training ride, an officer took the saddle and told my father to walk his horse back to the base. After the whole horse column disappeared out of sight, my father thought, ‘what the heck?’ and swung onto the horse, bareback.

AND THEY WERE OFF!

My father clung on for dear life as his barely broke mount attempted to catch up with the rest. That including jumping what he called dry gulches(?). When they got back to the barn, the sergeant in charge told my shaken father to get off the horse and walk and cool him off before the officers saw them.

(Yeah, I realize the story about my father has little to do with the whole thing, but as a horse crazy girl, I’ve cherished every story he had about his brief time with the Horse Cavalry in Texas. He was transferred to the Mechanized Cavalry when he was sent overseas.)

Oh, and I still have his brown Cavalry boots…[/QUOTE]

The point of training is NOT to minimize the damage, but to extinguish the undesired behaviors. It does not matter how close behind my horses I walk, they will not kick me.

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=skyon;8655969]
Well…the contradictions of below are a start:

For what it’s worth, I’m inclined to believe that type of cavalry rule wasn’t just US, and had to deal with lots of stupid.

Agree![/QUOTE]

What contradiction???

[Pipkin]

Please please please don’t lead horses behind you! I’ve seen some horrible accidents due to this, when something startles horse (and handler is unaware as horse and whatever scared them are out of sight) and horse bowls right over handler. I hate to say it but there is a reason horses have been lead from the shoulder for thousands of years.