Staying safe around a "Parelli" .. update post 147

[skyon]

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8656335]
What contradiction???[/QUOTE]

was taught by VERY good horsemen to either walk very CLOSE around the rear of a horse or very FAR. Obviously, in the latter case, you would be too far away to get kicked. In the first, IF the horse kicked, it would be more of a shove than a kick.

.

Originally Posted by Palm Beach View Post

When the horse is 3 feet or closer to you and at your shoulder, it only takes one quick step for him to get in front of you and you are within kicking distance. You are LEADING the horse, get in front of him.

That’s wonderful you think your horse will NEVER kick you. Famous last words and all. However I have a problem if someone else gets kicked by THEIR horse in getting totally confused about what is right and what is wrong.

As for the video, I’m sorry, I thought the guy was great at avoiding the fact that he probably told people horses would never move from his brand of ground tying and then turned it into another great feat of oh… but they did not dare run down the riders.

Like I said different strokes for different folks, but I object to the word NEVER and ALWAYS…

Not even going to get into the slapping horses in the face with leads or other, if it is practiced by the wrong hands…

[aliceo]

there is no contradiction. one is talking about what you should do at the rear of the horse, the other is talking about what you should do at the front of the horse.

i’m certified in defensive horse safety. as far as i know, there isn’t one rule for stupid horse people and one rule for the rest of us. being safe around a horse is pretty much the same for everyone. it’s actually more often the more experienced people who get hurt because they get careless and forget what they know. or think it no longer applies to them.

[skyon]

There is a contradiction in one person saying to lead at the Shoulder and another stating :

"When the horse is 3 feet or closer to you and at your shoulder, it only takes one quick step for him to get in front of you and you are within kicking distance. You are LEADING the horse, get in front of him. "

In the end it is about walking and leading a horse side by side versus leading from the front due to the radius of a horse kick.

It’s very easy to think a horse kick would be more powerful and dangerous if you are close, so get away, front or back - but they are not getting as far away as a true lunge length. There is no concept that a horse actually can do less if you are close. It’s the easy route because it doesn’t think beyond what someone could easily assume.

I’m all for extinguishing behavior if a horse is prone to kick, but in the end the horse has to be able to lead in a way the majority of horses are capable.

Instead people think the horse will be so obedient as to think it must trail you xx feet behind and will never rush in front of you …unless say, the doors open from behind as described in the video…

You can be certified in defensive horse safety, but if you think it’s OK to practice above I would question who certified you.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=aliceo;8656900]

i’m certified in defensive horse safety. [/QUOTE]

There’s a certification for that? Wow…we can’t even get a certification for riding instructors.

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=skyon;8656941]
There is a contradiction in one person saying to lead at the Shoulder and another stating :

Palm Beach: That’s not a contradiction, it’s a disagreement.

"When the horse is 3 feet or closer to you and at your shoulder, it only takes one quick step for him to get in front of you and you are within kicking distance. You are LEADING the horse, get in front of him. "

In the end it is about walking and leading a horse side by side versus leading from the front due to the radius of a horse kick.

Palm Beach: I lead with the horse at a 45 degree angle from my shoulder, and at least 3 feet back. Not directly behind me.

It’s very easy to think a horse kick would be more powerful and dangerous if you are close, so get away, front or back - but they are not getting as far away as a true lunge length. There is no concept that a horse actually can do less if you are close. It’s the easy route because it doesn’t think beyond what someone could easily assume.

I’m all for extinguishing behavior if a horse is prone to kick, but in the end the horse has to be able to lead in a way the majority of horses are capable.

Instead people think the horse will be so obedient as to think it must trail you xx feet behind and will never rush in front of you …unless say, the doors open from behind as described in the video…

Palm Beach: And those properly trained horses went AROUND the people who were holding them, not overtop of them.

You can be certified in defensive horse safety, but if you think it’s OK to practice above I would question who certified you.[/QUOTE]

See my remarks in bold.

[DressageFancy]

NH and all the other stuff aside, the good ol’ 4-H showmanship halter training still is one of the best ways to teach a horse (and handler) how to properly lead a horse with no one getting hurt. And most newbie horse people can understand the 4-H how to manual.

[Red_Barn]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8656967]
There’s a certification for that? Wow…we can’t even get a certification for riding instructors.[/QUOTE]

I was slightly surprised about that too, so I looked it up:
https://www.google.com/search?q=horse+safety+certification&oq=horse+safety+certification&aqs=chrome..69i57.18516j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
There are apparently quite a few organizations granting certifications like this.

[aliceo]

i agree the horse should be led in the front, out far in front enough that the horse can see you clearly and you aren’t in his blind spot. i wouldn’t be worried about the kick closer in because my horse has to turn his head away from me to kick me, and i have the lead rope and won’t allow that maneuver. so i agree with part of it, not all of it.

i was certified by the u.s. forest service at their ninemile training center.

[goneriding24]

[QUOTE=DressageFancy;8657384]
NH and all the other stuff aside, the good ol’ 4-H showmanship halter training still is one of the best ways to teach a horse (and handler) how to properly lead a horse with no one getting hurt. And most newbie horse people can understand the 4-H how to manual.[/QUOTE]

Nailed it.

[goneriding24]

When I walk behind almost any horse, unless it is totally wild and willing to die and take me with them (not likely happening, I’m too old for that shite,) I run my hand along its hip to the dock of the tail, grab a bit of hair and then proceed to walk on around, close as I dare. So far, knock on wood, have never been kicked doing this, I’m guessing horse knows I am there. Also, have heard pulling down on dock tail hair KEEPS a horse from kicking but I really don’t know how this works in a horses’ brain. Still, have never been kicked doing this.

I like my horses’ throatlatch to be at my shoulder when I’m leading. If it’s a seasoned cowhorse who I know won’t generally do anything but follow, I don’t mind if it wants to follow not quite directly behind me, a scoche off to the right side. I have a two foot rule, horses don’t come inside the two feet around me. Even if standing on the side of the mountain and it’s either run me over or stay outside the two foot zone and fall off the mountain, they better fall off the mountain. No running me over, not even to save themselves.

[RugBug]

Just watched some of BB’s 7 Clinics DVDs. The first ten minutes of disc one (after the intro) is of Buck leading a horse and showing how it’s done when the horse is respectful and paying attention. I fully believe that horse would not run over him even if he was right smack behind Buck and a bomb went off behind the horse. His space bubble is so well established that it is not going to be an issue. BUT, how many horses are as good as Buck’s?

I I prefer my horses head be somewhere in the vicinity of my shoulder as a just in case measure. This has worked for me for years even when leading horses with not so stellar ground manners

[Texarkana]

I have not read this entire thread.

BUT…

I just wanted to chime in to say that I recently worked with some hard core, high level Parelli horses for the first time in my life. I have been around many natural horsemanship trained horses before, watched a number of demonstrations, and have even read one of the Parelli books and did a little with my own horses. But this owner is the most deeply engaged Parelli person I have ever met.

All I can say is thank goodness the horses had wonderful dispositions, because otherwise they would have killed me. The ways the owner asks the horses to do things is incredibly different than anything I have ever seen. These horses were borderline impossible to work around if you aren’t familiar with the training methods.

[goneriding24]

[QUOTE=Texarkana;8658323]
These horses were borderline impossible to work around if you aren’t familiar with the training methods.[/QUOTE]

From a few owners I have seen, even if you are familiar with his methods, their horses were still pain in the necks and hard to work with. I don’t understand it, Pep himself used to be a pretty decent rider but this stuff he shills, nope, no way. I doubt he uses it himself (my opinion only).

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8658208]
Just watched some of BB’s 7 Clinics DVDs. The first ten minutes of disc one (after the intro) is of Buck leading a horse and showing how it’s done when the horse is respectful and paying attention. I fully believe that horse would not run over him even if he was right smack behind Buck and a bomb went off behind the horse. His space bubble is so well established that it is not going to be an issue. BUT, how many horses are as good as Buck’s?

I I prefer my horses head be somewhere in the vicinity of my shoulder as a just in case measure. This has worked for me for years even when leading horses with not so stellar ground manners[/QUOTE]

Good comment.

Well, you can settle for OK or you can settle for TRAINED. No one ever said it was easy or fast. Work is work. If you don’t want to do it, get the heck out of Dodge.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8659326]
Good comment.

Well, you can settle for OK or you can settle for TRAINED. No one ever said it was easy or fast. Work is work. If you don’t want to do it, get the heck out of Dodge.[/QUOTE]

watching the bit I did last night reminded me how little I truly know and how how much better my horses can be…despite how good people tell me they are.

[Red_Barn]

When did leading a horse from Point A to Point B - a basic skill historically mastered by moderately intelligent 7 year olds - take on all this mind-bending complexity and nuance?

For God’s sake. If people put this much effort into actually riding the damn beasts, they’d all be Olympians ten times over.

[Beck]

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8654825]

When the horse is 3 feet or closer to you and at your shoulder, it only takes one quick step for him to get in front of you and you are within kicking distance. [/QUOTE]

I have a great deal of difficulty picturing this happening. If I am at the shoulder, there is no way one step will put me in kicking range. Physically impossible.

[Beck]

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8654825]

When the horse is 3 feet or closer to you and at your shoulder, it only takes one quick step for him to get in front of you and you are within kicking distance. [/QUOTE]

I have a great deal of difficulty picturing this happening. If I am at the shoulder, there is no way one step will put me in kicking range. Physically impossible. The horse’s hind end is more than ‘three feet’ from his head.

[skyon]

Quote Originally Posted by DressageFancy View Post

NH and all the other stuff aside, the good ol’ 4-H showmanship halter training still is one of the best ways to teach a horse (and handler) how to properly lead a horse with no one getting hurt. And most newbie horse people can understand the 4-H how to manual.

[QUOTE=goneriding24;8657792]
Nailed it.[/QUOTE]

I think so. I was not in 4-H but it was wide spread enough at that time that those kids taught other kids. Plus it could be a variety of animals. Same with riding stables and lessons - not that much different in how you lead animals.

If I really want to throw gasoline on the flame - it was the guys who practiced some of this stuff here that could cause real problems because NH has some roots in not so kind methods that were used with really rank horses from range. That may work with a very disturbed animal but it can also make another horse nuts.

So everything old is new again and it’s all in the hands of who is practicing it.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=Red Barn;8659572]

When did leading a horse from Point A to Point B - a basic skill historically mastered by moderately intelligent 7 year olds - take on all this mind-bending complexity and nuance?

For God’s sake. If people put this much effort into actually riding the damn beasts, they’d all be Olympians ten times over.[/QUOTE]

I think that’s a pretty common attitude and it keeps people doing things the same way they’ve always been done without seeing if there is a better way.

If there was a way to be so connected to your horse that one tiny movement translated to a calm, focused action from them, would you want to learn it? If you can learn a way to communicate from the saddle that made it feel like you one with your horse and made his life less stressful because he understood what you wanted immediately, would you want to investigate?

Anyone can lead a horse. Not everyone can lead a horse with feel. And not every NH’d horse is going to be better because it’s all in control of the handler…and some are just not any good at this…and some of the practioners are better than others.

After seeing the difference in my horses, I am a full on Kool-Aid drinker…but of the BB, RH, TD variety. It’s not a coincidence that I get compliments on my horse’s ground manners on a regular basis. It’s not just because my horses have good temperaments that the vets like working with them…or that the one stood stock still yesterday while another horse freaked out in a stock trailer because its buddy was gone. When they are gaxing and step on the lead rope and go “okay, no worries” rather than fly backward…it’s not that I got lucky. It’s because I regularly work on their manners. And truth be told…I kind of suck at this stuff. I’m at the very beginning stages of learning and there is so much more…

But, the traditional way works as well and it’s pretty easy to learn…but when the horse pulls for grass or runs into them when spooking for something, their handles might just wonder if there is a better way. or they might not. It’s not the end of the world.