Staying safe around a "Parelli" .. update post 147

[skyon]

Rugbug, agree - but my horse has pretty damn good ground manners as well and for the most I didn’t practice this stuff - other than regularly working my horse and riding it in lots of different situations.

I did use a cheap round pen for maybe 5 times and short periods? I did much more on the lunge in the dead of winter. Did I do lots of ground work? In the manner of regular leading, riding and trailering. And I had crap happen and had to work through it. It was definitely a mix of stuff to remedy.

If I swatted my horse near her face it was once, as an automatic reaction to getting in my space and that was it, I don’t even recall doing it - and I certainly didn’t look for an opportunity to do that.

I don’t recall shaking a lead rope purpose, but again, I probably did as per above.

I think there is lots to learn from Buck, whoever, even PP - it’s the need to think there is a cookie cutter approach that makes me nuts and its having various people tell me how gentle, gentle NH is as an approach so therefore it is zen …and the horse will bond and obey - and a part of me is thinking how zen is was when you had cowboy types years back shake things at a horses face want the horse to walk ten paces behind , not due to zen and alpha horse , but they wanted to show off total submissiveness.

Which leads to:

But, the traditional way works as well and it’s pretty easy to learn…but when the horse pulls for grass or runs into them when spooking for something, their handles might just wonder if there is a better way. or they might not. It’s not the end of the world

Don’t always assume a traditional way caused this and that NH may solve it. It can go the other way as well - traditional (and gasp horrors, something as simple as 4-H) can solve NH caused issues

One is not better than the other, so NH can quit looking for holes in traditional to preach and vice versa. It splinters into what you want to do with your horse. It’s just when something is so different from the start it can get weird.

[skyon]

Rugbug, agree - but my horse has pretty damn good ground manners as well and for the most I didn’t practice this stuff - other than regularly working my horse and riding it in lots of different situations.

I did use a cheap round pen for maybe 5 times and short periods? I did much more on the lunge in the dead of winter. Did I do lots of ground work? In the manner of regular leading, riding and trailering. And I had crap happen and had to work through it. It was definitely a mix of stuff to remedy.

If I swatted my horse near her face it was once, as an automatic reaction to getting in my space and that was it, I don’t even recall doing it - and I certainly didn’t look for an opportunity to do that.

I don’t recall shaking a lead rope purpose, but again, I probably did as per above.

I think there is lots to learn from Buck, whoever, even PP - it’s the need to think there is a cookie cutter approach that makes me nuts and its having various people tell me how gentle, gentle NH is as an approach so therefore it is zen …and the horse will bond and obey - and a part of me is thinking how zen it was when you had cowboy types want the horse to walk ten paces behind , not due to zen and alpha horse , but they wanted to show off total submissiveness. But I’m sure some of them would claim zen in this decade.

Which leads to:

But, the traditional way works as well and it’s pretty easy to learn…but when the horse pulls for grass or runs into them when spooking for something, their handles might just wonder if there is a better way. or they might not. It’s not the end of the world

Don’t always assume a traditional way caused this and that NH may solve it. It can go the other way as well - traditional (and gasp horrors, something as simple as 4-H) can solve NH caused issues

One is not better than the other, so NH can quit looking for holes in traditional to preach and vice versa. It splinters into what you want to do with your horse. It’s just when something is so different from the start it can get weird.

[roseymare]

Skyon, I agree, when I saw PP work a colt thirty years ago, there was nothing Zen about it. He was in that colts head. Although he hadn’t touched him, that colt was lathered and spent and emotionally and physically checked out. He overdid it for the show. I was not impressed and that colt was probably ruined.
I think there is something to learn from everyone but no approach is foolproof for every horse OR maybe more importantly every horse person.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=skyon;8660137]
Rugbug, agree - but my horse has pretty damn good ground manners as well and for the most I didn’t practice this stuff - other than regularly working my horse and riding it in lots of different situations. [/QUOTE]

My horses had pretty good ground manners before I starting doing NH as well. Lots of horses do. But what I have now is so far beyond what they were.

I did use a cheap round pen for maybe 5 times and short periods? I did much more on the lunge in the dead of winter. Did I do lots of ground work? In the manner of regular leading, riding and trailering. And I had crap happen and had to work through it. It was definitely a mix of stuff to remedy.

I’ve never really used a round pen.

If I swatted my horse near her face it was once, as an automatic reaction to getting in my space and that was it, I don’t even recall doing it - and I certainly didn’t look for an opportunity to do that.

If your NH person is looking for an opportunity or setting the horse up, they are doing it wrong. You DO.NOT set a horse up to fail. You introduce ideas in a controlled setting that help them succeed (it’s called exposure). I don’t have to swat my horse to teach it to keep it’s head out of my space…because I’ve addressed that with teaching them to give to pressure on their eye. And I didn’t do that by getting them to swat me with their head.

I don’t recall shaking a lead rope purpose, but again, I probably did as per above.

I do not “shake” a lead rope…at least not in the way PP does. I use it as an extension of my arm when necessary…and as little as possible.

I think there is lots to learn from Buck, whoever, even PP - it’s the need to think there is a cookie cutter approach that makes me nuts and its having various people tell me how gentle, gentle NH is as an approach so therefore it is zen …and the horse will bond and obey - and a part of me is thinking how zen it was when you had cowboy types want the horse to walk ten paces behind , not due to zen and alpha horse , but they wanted to show off total submissiveness. But I’m sure some of them would claim zen in this decade.

I don’t subscribe to cookie cutter approach at all. and PP and CA are idiots if you ask me. But there are a handful of people out there doing things in a better way. Not THE right way. But in a better way.

Don’t always assume a traditional way caused this and that NH may solve it. It can go the other way as well - traditional (and gasp horrors, something as simple as 4-H) can solve NH caused issues

One is not better than the other, so NH can quit looking for holes in traditional to preach and vice versa. It splinters into what you want to do with your horse. It’s just when something is so different from the start it can get weird.

I don’t believe that NH in all it’s various delivery methods is perfect or will solve every problem. NH is only as good at the person on the end of the rope or in the saddle…and how they learned from.

BUT, I’ve spent 30 years around horses and never seen connections and understanding as I see from BB, RH and TD. It’s not all zen…but they way they do it, it’s a whole lot less traumatic that “traditional.” As I mentioned on this thread earlier (or perhaps it was another), I used to be in your shoes, not impressed by NH and not buying into it at all. But I’ve seen enough and learned enough that I know something better is out there for my horses…and because I know it’s out there, I have to pursue it (although I pursue to the level that works for me…I’m not going to teach my hunter to chase cows…although I wouldn’t mind having the opportunity to teach her not to run away from cows). Not everyone will do NH…and their horses won’t all be crazy messes. People get along just fine without NH…but because I know I can do better by my horses, “just fine” doesn’t work for me any longer. It’s a bit like when Vladimir Littauer came along and challenged the traditional methods. People thought he was crazy, but slowly they saw that there was something better out there…and they began gravitating toward it. These days, there are a whole lot of people that agree that the forward riding system is better than what was used in the past.

I have absolutely NO use for PP, CA and that ilk that have taken this to a marketing and showmanship level that is just gross. It’s not about the horse anymore, it’s about their ego. But there are still folks out there doing NH right. Those are the ones we should all be paying attention too.

(sure wish I could find the videos of that European guy that is an amazing rider, but his idea of starting a young horse is to get on and let them buck it out. I would then contrast with BB video of him starting a horse. (in fact, here is one: The dark horse buck is on was started the previous day. How many horse starters that you know could be doing the same thing with a youngster on its second day U/S…without the horse being all that worried? He’s still figuring things out…but he’s not worried about it)

[skyon]

I’ve never really used a round pen.

See, the thing is, I don’t care if you did or did not. I do think it had some merit for me but what transpired was quick. However enough was there for me to respect it. So I can respect where I heard of using one.

So there is respect if there is an exchange of what may or may not work.

From everything you describe I don’t believe you shake a lead rope, lol and obviously feel strongly about this.

I don’t have a NH person and the one person I have observed I could respect since she viewed it as one tool but I have observed some contradicting behavior and I actually had to tell someone to stop shaking their rope at a horse park near me because I thought my normally calm horse was going to lose her mind ( they were directly in front of me and the vibration going on was crazy ).

Again - the reaction was - your horse is bad and my horse is good because I am shaking a rope for connection - if you did this, you too would not have a horse bug eyed about a rope. Alrighty. My consolation prize was seeing her horse later gallop away without her, lead trailing. True story.

I’m pretty sure that is a PP move but who knows - they also had a Tom Dorrance quote on their window. So it all gets quite confusing unless you actually read up on these guys (which I did in the 90s).

If you think you have found a deeper and meaningful way to work with horses, I can respect that. However I’m not on board with NH as the main way to train a horse for all things.

The point of this thread is that there seems to be some conflicts arising.

I stand by my comment about 4-h, and that it could very well be that a simple or “easy” way can sometimes often be the smarter way.

[roseymare]

And one person’s connection sometimes looks to me like a dictatorship…

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=roseymare;8660590]
And one person’s connection sometimes looks to me like a dictatorship…[/QUOTE]

True. It’s only as good as the person on the end of the rope…and the teacher…just like with 4-h or Pony Club or whathaveyou.

But I will say, that if having a horse stand quietly at the end of a lead rope until I ask them to do otherwise is a dictatorship, call me a dictator. It’s so pleasant not having to deal with the antsy horse.

@skyon

I actually had to tell someone to stop shaking their rope at a horse park near me because I thought my normally calm horse was going to loose her mind ( they were directly in front of me and the vibration going on was crazy ).

Again - the reaction was - your horse is bad and my horse is good because I am shaking a rope for connection - if you did this, you too would not have a horse bug eyed about a rope. Alrighty. My consolation prize was seeing her horse later gallop away without her, lead trailing. True story.

I’m pretty sure that is a PP move but who knows - they also had a Tom Dorrance quote on their window. So it all gets quite confusing unless you actually read up on these guys (which I did in the 90s).

That excessive lead rope shaking is most definitely PP. If you see someone going back and forth with a rope, it’s not the big three or it’s someone doing it wrong. Rope goes Up-down with the idea that the lead rope knot will hit under the chin is the big three. AND this is only used until the horse respects it. I’ve seen 25 horses figure it out in about 30 minutes. It should only be pulled out as an as needed refresher from there on out. I have watched BB use the rope to correct a horse going sideways…it was a thing to behold…and takes a lot of practice. but again, it’s not a back and forth crazy shake, shake, shake

You’re scenario would drive me nuts as well. i’ve seen the shaking and I can hardly contain myself. My vet even does it and she’s done mostly CA stuff. Drives me bonkers.

[goneriding24]

[QUOTE=skyon;8660515]
I stand by my comment about 4-h, and that it could very well be that a simple or “easy” way can sometimes often be the smarter way.[/QUOTE]

That’s my motto. Do it the easy way, as much as you can. Unless you are doing vet stuff, as far as I can tell, horses aren’t rocket science. People make it hard for whatever reason. That is why I am such a proponent of reading a horse and doing what needs to be done, quit, call it a day, pop a Corona, call it good.

Somewhere above was mentioned a round pen. Back when I rode a lot of young ones (almost everything I rode was young), I only used the round pen a few times and then outside we went. The RP is overused in my book. Plus most are too big, cover too much territory to be worthwhile. 3-4 times at the most, you need to go outside and ride your horse after that.

Also, people have this sense of “doing something” when nothing much needs to be done.

And, lastly, yep, I’m getting a real reminder of how you think you have seen it all in six decades of horses, only to find out your long two year old filly never read the book and I’m having to adjust to her and learn a few more things.

Yes, I’m rambling but maybe something here will click with someone. :lol::yes:

[Sansena]

And, update…

Horse/s respond particularly well with the stick helping direct them while leading. They hold a respectful distance, follow my body language, are mannerly and focused. I don’t even use the stick to direct position, I just hold it. Removing halters while distracting them with a treat for release helps tremendously as well.

I’ve long held the suspicion they’ve been “natural horseman shipped” to death… <<air quotes, meaning euphemism of natural horsemanship, to avoid any further unnecessary and redundant debate>>… to the point where they no longer know what body language/ pressure/ release signals to respect.

This was confirmed by a recent interaction. Horse in stall, head over door, me in hallway. Lots of itchy face rubbing given by me and horse immediately becomes rammy, pushy and loses all respect for boundaries. I end the scratching session and go into his stall to pick. Completely un provoked and seemingly without malice he slams his head into my face. I have no idea how he managed this so quickly while I’m holding a pitch fork. When I send him off, he stands there, confused. I have to make “big” noises and clang the fork against the floor/ wall and slap his wither to get him back. My cheekbone is sore, but more so, I’m flummoxed on how he did this so quickly… I never saw it coming.

It seems they have lost their sense of correct boundaries… they mistake affection for a reason to treat you like another horse. I feel bad for them because I’d like to love on them in the course of grooming etc., but they can’t make the distinction and I’m not looking to get hurt again.

It’s not in my nature to be heavy handed with horses-- not to say I lay a hand on them, more meaning constantly growling and making myself ‘big’ to provoke an action… I prefer to watch body language and rely heavily on horses responding to mine. Sadly, when they’ve been tinkered with as much as this crew, the ‘norms’ don’t apply anymore.

[Palm_Beach]

OP, you don’t understand how horses interact with each other. When you “love” on them, you are acting like a submissive horse, therefore, you get treated like a submissive horse. Hug your kids, hug your so, hug your dog.

[sascha]

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8709921]
OP, you don’t understand how horses interact with each other. When you “love” on them, you are acting like a submissive horse, therefore, you get treated like a submissive horse. Hug your kids, hug your so, hug your dog.[/QUOTE]

That’s a load of nonsense. When a horse hasn’t been taught to respect humans and to treat them as fragile beings is where the problem comes from. It has nothing to do with the human putting themselves in a position of “submission.” Too much over-thinking. Horses don’t give a crap how deeply you’ve thought about your relationship with you. They want to know the rules of engagement and to have confirmed those rules are constant and consistent. This does not preclude “loving on” them.

I’m always baffled by people who think horses are too stupid to figure out how to treat humans like humans and not like 2 legged horses. They are not stupid. They can tell you are not like them and there are different rules of engagement. Problem is folks get so wrapped up in trying to psychoanalyse their horse while remaining convinced the horse is also engaged in useless navel gazing that they forget to keep the rules simple, clear, and consistent.

[Sansena]

I never thought scratching between the mandible and using a flat hand on their forehead was making me submissive. Teach me more, Palm. How then, do you groom a horse without putting yourself in a ‘submissive’ status in the horse’s eyes?

[Haybert]

That head is dangerous when horse doesn’t respect your space, but that’s just general training issue.
Pplwho succumb to pepperoni want horses to be puppies and foget thet have parts that are going to hurt when playing with ahorse like you are a horse.

The key thing, at least any good does this is getting the calm respect of your space. Not 'hey I’m playing w/my buddy" or fearing every move a person makes. Nh is prone to attract nervous people who are afraid and don’t understand the calmness you need. So you get Linda Parelli doing jumping jacks to keep her horse out of her space.

[Sansena]

snort
…jumping jacks to keep them out of your space.

PERFECT!

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=Sansena;8709864]
And, update…

Horse/s respond particularly well with the stick helping direct them while leading. They hold a respectful distance, follow my body language, are mannerly and focused. I don’t even use the stick to direct position, I just hold it. Removing halters while distracting them with a treat for release helps tremendously as well.

What are you trying to accomplish with the stick??? I never lead with a stick. Why would you have one in your hand while leading??? And when you give treats, the horse is taking something away from you. Submissive behavior.

I’ve long held the suspicion they’ve been “natural horseman shipped” to death… <<air quotes, meaning euphemism of natural horsemanship, to avoid any further unnecessary and redundant debate>>… to the point where they no longer know what body language/ pressure/ release signals to respect.

Well, they sure do have your number.

This was confirmed by a recent interaction. Horse in stall, head over door, me in hallway. Lots of itchy face rubbing given by me and horse immediately becomes rammy, pushy and loses all respect for boundaries. I end the scratching session

He’s doing a good job of training you!

and go into his stall to pick. Completely un provoked and seemingly without malice he slams his head into my face. I have no idea how he managed this so quickly while I’m holding a pitch fork. When I send him off, he stands there, confused.

Because he does not understand you.

I have to make “big” noises and clang the fork against the floor/ wall and slap his wither to get him back.

I’ve never heard of that training method. Where did you learn it? How well is it working for you?

My cheekbone is sore, but more so, I’m flummoxed on how he did this so quickly… I never saw it coming.

I saw it coming back on page 1 of this thread.

It seems they have lost their sense of correct boundaries… they mistake affection for a reason to treat you like another horse.

Finally, you get it! Horses treat people like horses.

I feel bad for them because I’d like to love on them in the course of grooming etc., but they can’t make the distinction and I’m not looking to get hurt again.

Oh wait, maybe not.

It’s not in my nature to be heavy handed with horses-- not to say I lay a hand on them, more meaning constantly growling and making myself ‘big’ to provoke an action… I prefer to watch body language and rely heavily on horses responding to mine. Sadly, when they’ve been tinkered with as much as this crew, the ‘norms’ don’t apply anymore.[/QUOTE]

Why do feel that you need to be heavy handed and “big” with horses? I’m a small person, and I deal regularly with ottbs. Within a few days of coming here, they ALL move over when I enter the stall and point and smooch, so I can pick out the stalls or top off water buckets or whatever. And I never use anything other than my finger pressure on them and a smooch. For decades.

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=Sansena;8709964]
I never thought scratching between the mandible and using a flat hand on their forehead was making me submissive. Teach me more, Palm. How then, do you groom a horse without putting yourself in a ‘submissive’ status in the horse’s eyes?[/QUOTE]

You can’t afford me. Or maybe you can’t not afford me. Anyway, not accepting new clients at this time.

[oldernewbie]

I am going to write a truly old fart comment here. Guess I will end up sounding like John Rosemond (human child rearing, loses his sh*t every week in a column he writes, is especially critical of mothers. Fun guy!), but here goes.

I got my first horse in 1963 at the ripe old age of 11. I had read every horse care book in existence, actually more like memorized them. If I recall correctly, all those old-timey experts emphasized safety and practical horse handling. I had daily contact with horses until I was 18 and went to college, rode on and off after college, showed successfully, owned horses that were safe and easy to handle on the ground, and thoroughly enjoyed them.

Sons were born in 1988 and I took a long vacation from horses. Got my current horse in 2009 and started reading again and couldn’t help but notice all this discussion about dominance, submission, herd dynamics, join up, and so on. To be honest, it truly baffles me. When and how did it get so complicated and overwrought to handle horses? I read threads here on COTH and people are going on and on about the psychodynamics between them and their horses and all I can think of is - pop the horse with the shank and get it over with! (or something to that effect!)

I guess it is a lot like modern childrearing. Some good ideas have gotten taken to such an extreme that the handler (or parent) are paralyzed by all these thoughts and emotions that really get in the way of an effective relationship.

I rub my horse’s face all the time. He also seems to know to stop rubbing when I say that’s enough. I did not go to great (or any!) lengths to teach him that - somehow in our calm and reasonable interactions with each other he has figured it out. I did not go to any great lengths to demonstrate dominance with him - in fact I think that kind of behavior around a horse is kind of silly. I don’t want to dominate him, I’ve never thought about it. I want him to respect me, to do what I ask, to be a good citizen, to work with me.

All this psychobabble about horses just seems weird to me. Is that weird?

End of rant. Now I will stop waving my cane around and get back to my crocheting. (LOL!)

[Sansena]

Ahh, Palm. Yes, you’ve proven once again that you’re so busy working with horses that you can come here and criticize everyone, and insult simultaneously. You must be quite successful, and, obviously, expensive to hire.

There’s an anonymity afforded to us online. I would love for you to come deal with this particular critter. If you had paid attention through this thread instead of just used it as a podium with which to feed your ego, you’d see that all the things you suggest had been tried before. He doesn’t respond to ‘common’ point and body language type communication. See my first post, and subsequent comments from others throughout.

The stick is to keep him out of my space because he WILL run you over as if you’re invisible. And, the ‘treat’ is to keep him from rearing up, tearing away and trying to take my teeth out on release.

But I’m sure you’d have him curled up at your feet within moments of meeting him simply because of your aura.

Look, I’ve been doing this (horse handling) since the '80s. It’s not my first rodeo. I deal with somewhere between 7 and 30 different horses monthly. It’s my job. I can navigate safely around unhanded babies, ill-trained stallions and newly weaned broodmare/ baby combos. I can (relatively successfully) restrain painful colics while the vet passes a tube or rectals them. Once again, no noob here.

The fact, Palm, that you’re here only to insult instead of offer helpful advice is the reason you’ve been on block for months now. I thought perhaps since you’ve been back many times that you might finally offer something helpful.

I also think if I keep putting that money from my bottle deposits toward the Powerball I’d have my own farm by now. I think my luck’s better with the lottery.

[heronponie]

Marketing. Marketing is the only reason that all the silly psychobabble and pretending humans are horses took hold.

Unfortunately, a ton of people bought it hook, line, and sinker (this thread is a pristine example) and attempt to perpetuate it all over the place.

OP, I hope your cheek heals up quickly. Might be a good idea to treat as a mild concussion- a blow like that to the head is pretty serious.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Haybert;8709984]
That head is dangerous when horse doesn’t respect your space, but that’s just general training issue.
Pplwho succumb to pepperoni want horses to be puppies and foget thet have parts that are going to hurt when playing with ahorse like you are a horse.

The key thing, at least any good does this is getting the calm respect of your space. Not 'hey I’m playing w/my buddy" or fearing every move a person makes. Nh is prone to attract nervous people who are afraid and don’t understand the calmness you need. So you get Linda Parelli doing jumping jacks to keep her horse out of her space.[/QUOTE]

You can’t go by what Linda Parelli does or has to say, she is definitely and demonstrably horse deaf.

Just look at the videos she put out as oh so educational, where she was beating around a horse without any sense or timing, confusing it mightily, or clunking the hitching rack and later that grey arabian, that stood there non-plussed wondering why humans again had lost their marbles, while being knocked repeatedly under the head with the metal snap and rope.

When something just doesn’t make sense, when training is rough in the name of teaching, when the horse is telling you clearly by the way it is resisting and throwing it’s head around trying to avoid being roughed up, stop and think and just - don’t - go - there.

Yes, Virginia, you can say NO when something you are told to do seems wrong, your horses will thank you.