Tacky or normal? Trainer's spouse showing against our middle schoolers

[fordtraktor]

Then they aren’t really combined, are they?

Dressage shows here do this, they schedule all the, say, First Level Test 1 rides in a row and pin Open, Ammy, and Junior separately. But they are different classes still. When I have shown combined Hunter classes, it is usually because there had to be a certain number of entries to get points and one division didn’t have enough. It’s been a while but I think it is like 3-4. I saw it a lot back when there were First and Second Year Greens as the Second Years often didn’t fill.

It isn’t really the rider’s fault if the show combines and I would not expect him to bow out. Showing is expensive and not just about ring time, it is also about the horse’s record.

I would maybe feel differently if it was a truly “meant for beginners” division like Short Stirrup. Then the experienced rider should show in the Hopeful Hunters or whatever they call them now.

[TheDBYC]

@blondewithchrome

Also — I count 1,2 to 3’ jumps all the time lol.

Hey, now. I still think Up Down Up Down Sit Sit to post & change diagonals. And I’ve been trotting for 37 years now

Again, imo it is primarily as one of those ill-thought out Hunter rules issues. I also recognize the “optics” issue. And if it were me, I’d likely tell my spouse he needed to alternate shows, stick to ones we know will fill, or ride under someone else’s tutilage. These aren’t the OP’s kids & she was just asking after the norm. But sooner or later, the coach may well find herself facing an issue with parents walking & taking their checkbooks with them. And hopefully those horses the spouse was campaigning sell for enough to cover the difference.

I get that family involvement is a tradition in riding & hunters in particular. Times are changing. I come from another sport where coaches work hard to disassociate from their spouse/children to avoid any appearance of favoritism or conflict of interest. We left a barn where the trainer was amazing but her family (husband in particular) spoiled it. Entries for students in direct competition to their child mysteriously bungled, etc.) I watch carefully now.

[vxf111]

All the assumptions that the adults have the advantage. Around here the adults are riding their not-as-nice horses that they scraped together to afford and the kids are riding 6 figure hack winners that could step into the ring at Devon because mom and dad want little Suzie to succeed and are willing to buy a fancy horse to get that accomplished. It’s the kids you gotta’ worry about here!

My point is that there is always going to be some unfairness. Someone will be more experienced. More talented. Better mounted. Having a better day. That’s life. If no one is breaking the rules then it’s not tacky or inappropriate. It’s the reality of life.

OP would you be complaining if it was a trainer’s slick-riding teenage daughter competing in the Children’s on a fancy sale horse against the working students/other kids. Why does it being an adult make a difference? Even without combining, a trainer’s relative can be in your class. Sometimes they’re better than you. Sometimes not.

[IPEsq]

Assuming this is a zone where same rider can cross enter AO and AA, the only real advantage I see for the trainer/spouse situation is that the rules require that the rider also own the AA horse. And ownership includes owned by a spouse or immediate family or a company that the rider owns. So, the trainer barn situation could have a string of sale horses in its name that give the rider perhaps a greater pick of horses than the average amateur. Although of course wealthy amateurs are out there with multiple horses, some of which can’t/no longer do the AO height.

In zones where cross entry is not permitted, at least back when I was last showing in these divisions, the work around would often be to find a very good children’s catch rider to take the AA horse around.

Growing up at local shows and C shows, there often weren’t enough people at the higher heights to have many divisions/ages run separately. And, sometimes even in the juniors, the Jr/AO were often combined. And before you say that’s unfair to the AO riders, they tended to have more $$$ for fancier horses. I think it was good competition and taught one how not to be a sore sport.

I did take my current horse to a schooling show last year pre-COVID that only had open divisions. I entered the 2’-2’3" division just for mileage on my new to me and new to hunters import. I thought it would look bad if I entered the equitation against novices and kids, but since my horse wasn’t used to the back to back trip thing, even though we put together a winning first hunter round (winning at this level, not like we scored a 90), the second round consisted of jumping the first jump, horse started screaming at the far end of the ring and bucking. So, we entered the eq. division rather than wait for the next height in the hunters. Including the flat, since it was his first flat class ever and we spent a lot of time pretending not to spook at the broken down outside line stacked against the fence. A couple decades ago, I was in the top 10 in the flat of the USET Talent Search finals. And I did win this flat class against some children, and I was moderately embarrassed by that but also glad that horse only slightly jumped at the loudspeaker, had gotten over melting down at applause by this class, and only sort of passaged in the sitting trot. But instead of anyone showing any sour grapes, a lot of people were super nice and complimentary to me and my horse, and I think I made the right choice of division for him at that time.

[Pennywell_Bay]

Guys- serious question. I see a few posts criticizing counting , counting a way around a course- my question: Does that really make one a “less than” rider?

I’m not a pro - but just last week at WEC my trainer was like- you rarely miss. Your eye is excellent (talking about my horse doesn’t tolerate a rider who gets bad distances. Typically you may get 2 bad distances pilot error and then he drops you).

As I turn or come around the corner- I think a1,2 it and then close the gap or hold.

So I’m curious. Is counting really such a low skill
move? (I’ve been doing it for my 42 jumping years ).

[supershorty628]

@Pennywell_Bay

Guys- serious question. I see a few posts criticizing counting , counting a way around a course- my question: Does that really make one a “less than” rider?

I’m not a pro - but just last week at WEC my trainer was like- you rarely miss. Your eye is excellent (talking about my horse doesn’t tolerate a rider who gets bad distances. Typically you may get 2 bad distances pilot error and then he drops you).

As I turn or come around the corner- I think a1,2 it and then close the gap or hold.

So I’m curious. Is counting really such a low skill
move? (I’ve been doing it for my 42 jumping years ).

Thinking in a rhythm in your head isn’t the same as counting out loud all the way around the course, which is the impression I got from the OP.

[Pennywell_Bay]

Ok. I missed that. My trainer did look at my odd in the convo when he was like- Normally I tell people to pick a spot on the back rail (we were course walking to an oxer) but you don’t do it that way but you rarely miss. I have no idea how you find the distance but don’t change it.

So I responded- ummm I count 1,2 1,2

And he laughed (snort) and looked at me funny.

Then this came up and I thought- well shucks, maybe this is why he looked at me like that

[Foitin]

Your impression is incorrect!

[Foitin]

I think many people count. I find it distracting, and try to focus on creating a canter with impulsion, but I think the goal is the same: to get in a good rhythm where just like you say, you can hold or close you leg.

[touchstone]

I think there are two separate questions. 1) Is this ok? and 2) Is this a good business decision for this trainer and spouse?

On 1, I am firmly with @supershorty628. If the rider is an amateur, then let them ride in the amateur classes.

2 is a more complicated question. The very fact this poster and some barnmates are turned off is perhaps a sign that the trainer’s spouse routinely beating customers in the 3’ divisions is not good for business.

[Luseride]

I had someone comment about me showing once in a crossrails class. I was obviously the riding instructor and was actually going against one of my students. What was not known was I had never jumped anything at a show, my horse had never jumped anything at a show, and I forgot to breathe!

My student kicked my tail. I had a great time. We laughed all the way home.

Reality is I am worse than people that take lessons because no one ever watches me ride and gives pointers. I don’t instruct full time but I am an excellent teacher and put good skills on my horses and riders.

I have seen the trainer’s family members that ride as an ammy but that is what they are. Yes, they may have an edge but we are all looking for that. Ultimately showing is about improving yourself and your horse, not the placing.

[Foitin]

I agree with this assessment of the situation. Due to issue 2, it is looking like this adult will not be showing in this division in future shows (if they are still combined due to COVID). Probably mostly due to the fact that some of this person’s own barn mates have gotten in some good digs about them showing in the children’s hunters against his wife own students.

[supershorty628]

For the record, regardless of whose children they are, I think it’s in very poor form to be whispering behind backs about whether something is appropriate or not. It’s a terrible example. Kids see that - they see the furtive glances, overhear parents muttering about how it shouldn’t be allowed, etc., and they internalize that. The end result is that these children grow up to be the nasty, railbird type adults, and think that when they are beaten by someone, it’s a personal insult.

It’s gross, and the fact that you, OP, seem to think it’s not a problem that the atmosphere at this barn is clearly not very supportive of everyone who rides there, is honestly disheartening. This sport should be inclusive of everyone’s participation - not just the people who ride worse than you do so you can beat them in the ring.

Teach yourselves - and your barn’s younger members - to have good sportsmanship. Teach them how to compete with themselves. This whole concept of “everyone should get a blue ribbon out of fairness” is not how competing works. There will always be someone with an advantage, whether it’s financial, time, horse, whatever. That’s life. If you don’t like what the rules are, then address that with the organization that makes the rules - not by stirring up gossip within your barn.

I feel sorry for the trainer’s spouse. All they did is show in classes they’re eligible for, and now it sounds like they’re being railroaded out of something they enjoy by bitter, overly protective adults who don’t actually want their children to experience competition.

[Pennywell_Bay]

Wow, Getting in some good digs? That’s toxic. I would not want to ride in a barn where other people I show with like to get in digs and seem pleased with it, even in the situation you described.

Know that this time they are talking about the husband, next time it could be you.

[Foitin]

Excuse me?

[Foitin]

The people digging are those of the spouse’s own clients.

[mmeqcenter]

@Foitin

The people digging are those of the spouse’s own clients.

And? That doesn’t make it any better. THAT is what I find to be tacky AF.

[MHM]

@touchstone

2 is a more complicated question. The very fact this poster and some barnmates are turned off is perhaps a sign that the trainer’s spouse routinely beating customers in the 3’ divisions is not good for business.

It can be a tricky thing.

I saw it work the other way some years ago. There was a junior who was an excellent rider, but she stopped showing before she aged out. I have a feeling it was because she was beating her dad’s customers too often, and they were not happy about it. The customers were extremely well mounted on very expensive horses, but the trainer’s daughter was a much better rider, even though she was showing much more ordinary livestock.

I think the whole situation made her uncomfortable, although I have no way to know for sure. But she stopped showing, even though she rode extremely well and loved the horses and the shows.

[Foitin]

I didn’t witness it, but I think most of it was in jest. Everything is pathologized here, but not necessarily in real life, thank goodness!

[TheDBYC]

Can’t say that I’ve ever seen/heard anyone do that, tbh. Not even the littles in Short Stirrup.