Seems to me that the fact that five or fewer TBs were bred in Holland and about 1000 in Germany means that breeders and riders in those countries have little or no experience with what TBs can or cannot do.
[QUOTE=ladyj79;7592036]
Right, that’s a fact.
What I don’t understand is what you are arguing, for or against. You are stating facts as if you are arguing some position that warrants this ongoing and pointed discussion. But they are facts which aren’t being disputed ie top horses of any breed are exceptions…which I had in fact stated, and you simply repeated as if you were disagreeing with me.
From what I can grasp of your position, and please correct me if I’m wrong, you feel it would be beneficial for more breeders and riders to seek out thoroughbreds for competing and breeding. Some people agree with you, and others do not. Such is life. This is a conversations breeders and riders engage in regularly, and the positions are pretty entrenched 
As someone who’s owned “exceptional” thoroughbreds, I personally go with Tom’s assessing individual horses on their merits. But as someone who has worked for breeders, I also know that most of the time you gotta go with a known quantity, both in terms of performance and marketability. Experimentation can have great rewards, but as was pointed out earlier, it’s often in hindsight.
All that aside, if I’m not mistaken, you love and respect thoroughbreds, and value their contribution to sport; me, too. So, again, I’m not sure why you honed in on me in particular to carry on this conversation, but that’s ok, enjoy your day.[/QUOTE]
My points are pretty straightforward.
Correlation does not equal causation. People seem to think TBs can no longer jump because they are seldom seen in top jumper rings anymore. That’s a logical fallacy. TBs are not seen in top jumper rings anymore because no one wants to go raking through a bunch of prospects to find a green horse who may turn out to be a top jumper. There aren’t that many top jumper riders in this country, so there are a lot of riders out there with horses that could go much further than they do in the jumping world.
Yes, horses need to be assessed on individual merits. That seems to me like an overtly obvious thing.
TBs are not all built alike. Jumpers are not all built alike. In fact, it’s sometimes amusing to see people’s reactions on here when they see a conformation shot of a top jumper. It’s often not what they thought, and that goes for horses like Baloubet du Rouet who was a top jumper and a top breeding stallion.
I haven’t “honed in on” you. I was responding to your posts, you were responding to mine. That’s it.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7592660]
Seems to me that the fact that five or fewer TBs were bred in Holland and about 1000 in Germany means that breeders and riders in those countries have little or no experience with what TBs can or cannot do.[/QUOTE]
My country has around 16.8 million inhabitants and Germany 80 million. So you can imagine that Dutch and German people do no see many Thoroughbred horses. We do see lots of warmblood horses.
Yeah, it’s a point I make regularly to riders who want to upgrade their dressage horses rather than their riding: most horses are capable of anything the average rider might demand of them. But it still goes back to you can’t make people see the talent or possibility in every horse, and some horses and/or breeds are viewed as more naturally inclined to a discipline than others. Whether that has any validity will always been in question because there will always be exceptions, and trends change. Like how Baloubet du Rouet has trotter blood upclose which to me is kind of wild and awesome. Just think about taking that risk! Hanos are the top in dressage, so dressage riders buy hanos, and hano breeders breed more for dressage, and “killed the jump” so to speak. Now certain breeders are putting some jumper lines back in, but it will take a while before the success of more than a few examples demonstrates to the market whether or not that is a successful endeavor. And in the end that’s what it inevitably boils down to: we breed for the market, we’re subject to what is available from the market, and occasionally someone takes a risk, breeds outside the box, and cool things happen.
TBs are not seen in top jumper rings anymore because no one wants to go raking through a bunch of prospects to find a green horse who may turn out to be a top jumper. There aren’t that many top jumper riders in this country, so there are a lot of riders out there with horses that could go much further than they do in the jumping world.
Actually this is not true. Eventers still use the OTTB as a source for the majority of their horses. These are really good riders and horse people who I am sure would love to flip a 3k horse into a 135k horse because it can easily do a 1.4m or more course. These horses are getting evaluated. Often eventers are struggling to find a horse that is capable and I am sure would love to sell off the one’s that show superior jumping talent along the way if they are not suitable for their own sport. And the people who are selling the Tb’s are not stupid either, I am sure they would like better prices and can put them through a chute. I know they do that at some of the Tb sales around here. http://www.cthsalta.com/category/news-and-updates/ottb/
I will say there are many Tb’s that are excellent athletes, and for some ammy riders they would be able to do the job if they have the right personality and it is true that they can be overlooked at this level. But they are not bred for great temperament, good feet and so on. I had a mare that was race bred who had horrible feet and a terrible personality, but the breeders were focused on fast. As many of them are and that is another point, many of the people who bred Tb’s are doing so because they have money and it is a hobby. They are not avid breeders and only have one goal. Go look at racing and how it is set up and who is breeding and what they breed for. They are not bred as riding horses and it is only because of their numbers that you end up with some really good riding horses.
Someone posted that there are way more Wb’s bred then Tbs- 37,000 in NA alone. Then add the rest of the world.
It is so much more expensive to make a 1.4m horse in the USA vs Europe that getting a $2500 OTT and putting 2 or 3 years into them suddenly they are not quite the same bargain assuming they work out. Why take the risk and that goes for USA breeders overall-We have such an expensive infra-structure for making top horses, Cheap schooling shows are only going to get you a very little way.
(I seem to remember about 50,000 plus plus WBs are bred a year in Europe.)
[QUOTE=omare;7592963]
It is so much more expensive to make a 1.4m horse in the USA vs Europe that getting a $2500 OTT and putting 2 or 3 years into them suddenly they are not quite the same bargain assuming they work out. Why take the risk and that goes for USA breeders overall-We have such an expensive infra-structure for making top horses, Cheap schooling shows are only going to get you a very little way.
(I seem to remember about 50,000 plus plus WBs are bred a year in Europe.)[/QUOTE]
It costs the same amount to show a Wb as it does a Tb and any horse might not work out. The only difference is the starting price. So if Wb’s can get made in NA so can the Tb if they are capable.
A horse that shows tons of talent is less of a risk regardless of breed and those horses tend to make it to the shows. People speculate on jumper bred foals all the time, and most cost more than a OTTB that you can actually put in a chute.
Not really a reason you don’t see more Tb’s.
How about they are not bred for it here? No selective process for SJ. They are selected for a ton of other amazingly athletic traits but not jumping, that is coincidental and left over from horses that were shipped from NH horses. Want to know why Tb’s have changed? They are further from the original breeding of horses that raced over jumps.
(Unless you have a Tb SJ program with Tb’s).
Once again, not saying some of them cannot jump, just that most are not bred for it and will not be a positive contribution to a breeding program. Very few can make a positive contribution to UL SJ breeding.
There are a couple and they should be in the conversation of how and when to add Tb in generational breeding of jumpers. Speaking of a general population is not going to produce top horses, regardless of the breed. It is always about the selected horses that have above average ability and how to manage them.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7592779]
Actually this is not true. Eventers still use the OTTB as a source for the majority of their horses. These are really good riders and horse people who I am sure would love to flip a 3k horse into a 135k horse because it can easily do a 1.4m or more course. These horses are getting evaluated. Often eventers are struggling to find a horse that is capable and I am sure would love to sell off the one’s that show superior jumping talent along the way if they are not suitable for their own sport. And the people who are selling the Tb’s are not stupid either, I am sure they would like better prices and can put them through a chute. I know they do that at some of the Tb sales around here. http://www.cthsalta.com/category/news-and-updates/ottb/
I will say there are many Tb’s that are excellent athletes, and for some ammy riders they would be able to do the job if they have the right personality and it is true that they can be overlooked at this level. But they are not bred for great temperament, good feet and so on. I had a mare that was race bred who had horrible feet and a terrible personality, but the breeders were focused on fast. As many of them are and that is another point, many of the people who bred Tb’s are doing so because they have money and it is a hobby. They are not avid breeders and only have one goal. Go look at racing and how it is set up and who is breeding and what they breed for. They are not bred as riding horses and it is only because of their numbers that you end up with some really good riding horses.
Someone posted that there are way more Wb’s bred then Tbs- 37,000 in NA alone. Then add the rest of the world.[/QUOTE]
I said top jumper rings, not eventing. Two different sports. Eventers are often looking for something cheap and don’t mind something green. if the horse is good and they sell the horse often goes to another eventing barn.
There are plenty of TBs (including OTTBs) with unbelievably good personalities and good feet. If they didn’t have good feet they wouldn’t hold up in eventing.
“It costs the same amount to show a Wb as it does a Tb and any horse might not work out. The only difference is the starting price. So if Wb’s can get made in NA so can the Tb if they are capable.”
My point is for any USA bred anything --it is cheaper to buy a horse in Europe with the two years of mileage already on them than making them in the USA, especially I am assuming if a pro already has an established trusted source for said horses–Maybe one reason we are not seeing vast quantities of USA bred horses (from any studbook) tearing up the GP rings. You see few US bred horses in the US Sunday GP from any breed book. I am not making excuses for TB I am making excuses for all USA bred horses.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7591992]
Top jumper riders don’t go to the backstretch of racetracks looking for talent anymore; they go to Europe and get a horse that’s already jumping courses.[/QUOTE]
Is that the fault of the horses or the riders? Don’t blame the TB for the American trainers’ unwillingness to bring along a young TB, bred for racing. A generation or more of trainers has little or no experience with the TB as a hunter or a jumper and very few know how to ride them. Again, who’s to blame?
Back when the major patrons of showjumping were also racing enthusiasts (Fitz Dixon, the duPonts etc) it was a natural progression from track to jumping arenas. Many old moneyed families bred horses and brought the slower ones home to become hunters or showhorses. If they could do big fences, they were often handed over to BNR’s who honed their skills. Today many of those families are gone and since there are opportunities for “cheaper” TB’s to make decent money, they keep running.
TB’s are often victims of their cheapness. I cannot count the number of nice horses I have seen that become a “first horse” or a “kids horse” with almost no re-schooling. Horse acts up and kid gets scared and horse is branded a rogue. Horse ends up at an auction because “trainer” can’t ride it either. Mom and Dad want it gone because it bucked off little “Brittni” and it goes to an auction. If he gets sold the race trainer gets blamed not the idiot who bought an race horse for her kid!
A friend of mine bought one of them a few years ago. He was 17 and had been passed around and seen a few auctions before going to someone who knew how to ride. Too bad because he could cart a drunken monkey around 3’6 and did 4’6 with a good rider like he was born too it. Could he have been a “contender?” Maybe. Had he had a better start post racing, he could have been a serious high AO horse.
As for breeding to jump, Spectacular Bid was one of the fasted racehorses in history but his claim to fame is as a sire of horses that can jump. Since he was a modest sire, many of his offspring could be had for short money for re schooling but many were lost because record keeping in the showing world is such that not many people knew how good a jumping sire he was. Kudos to the RRTP for attempting a sport horse pedigree data base and to people like Denny Emerson who study bloodlines.
I agree with the comment that no matter the breed, it is cheaper to get a young horse up to the 1.2m in Europe. Shows are cheaper and closer together. They move young horses up faster than Americans and coddle them less. They are willing to sell to the first person who shows up with money rather than waiting for the “perfect home.” OTOH, they cull ruthlessly and the bad ones (that Americans don’t buy) end up eaten by the French. :concern:
I am curious what this stallion will do in the future:
http://www.jorisdebrabander.be/fr/chevaux/LEIPHEIMER-VAN-T-VERAHOF-VIGO-DARSOUILLES-x-SOUTH-GALE-XX
http://bwp.be/_html/hengsten.php?stb=1&page=hengsten
People do seem to think that he will be mostly suited for eventing and eventing breeding.
[QUOTE=Linny;7593335]
Is that the fault of the horses or the riders? Don’t blame the TB for the American trainers’ unwillingness to bring along a young TB, bred for racing. A generation or more of trainers has little or no experience with the TB as a hunter or a jumper and very few know how to ride them. Again, who’s to blame?[/QUOTE]
I said earlier that most show jumpers are now made horses from Europe. A lot of those trainers have and can deal with TBs just fine. It’s not a matter of “blaming” anyone, except those that lump all TBs into downhill creatures with bad feet and bad personalities that can’t jump. To which I respond, wtf?
Quote from viney:
Seems to me that the fact that five or fewer TBs were bred in Holland and about 1000 in Germany means that breeders and riders in those countries have little or no experience with what TBs can or cannot do.
Learn German Then get copies of the old (past 50-100 years) books analyzing TB blood (available at that time) for “modern” sport horse breeding (Main Stud Trakehnen 101 for example) - you’d be surprised at the depth of knowledge and actual success (and failre) that is being reported without sugar coating.
I have spent two decades roaming race tracks, looking for (long distance or steeplechase) mares. I can tell you from first hand experience, the TB mare that has the phenotype and genotype to at least PROMISE some valued addition to sport horse breeding is rarely seen today. And she is easier to find in Europe than in the US. Some of us are idealistic enough to give it a try. Some are not. That’s life.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10580198
http://www.horsetelex.de//horses/pedigree/174103
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/seeconda
[QUOTE=Maren;7593856]
Quote from viney:
Seems to me that the fact that five or fewer TBs were bred in Holland and about 1000 in Germany means that breeders and riders in those countries have little or no experience with what TBs can or cannot do.
Learn German Then get copies of the old (past 50-100 years) books analyzing TB blood (available at that time) for “modern” sport horse breeding (Main Stud Trakehnen 101 for example) - you’d be surprised at the depth of knowledge and actual success (and failre) that is being reported without sugar coating.
I have spent two decades roaming race tracks, looking for (long distance or steeplechase) mares. I can tell you from first hand experience, the TB mare that has the phenotype and genotype to at least PROMISE some valued addition to sport horse breeding is rarely seen today. And she is easier to find in Europe than in the US. Some of us are idealistic enough to give it a try. Some are not. That’s life.[/QUOTE]
Those books are 50-100 years old. How many people today have actually read those books? And what do they matter now anyway? They are 50-100 years old.
Have you seen any of these horses move or actually jump other than in a steeplechase? Sorry, I’ve seen and RIDDEN enough TBs over HERE to know that there are TBs who can be valuable assets to sport breeding programs.
Besides, TBs still excel in eventing, where riders are still willing to get them off the track and develop them. So I really couldn’t agree with your assessment any less.
I’d guess that this mare would be an asset to most breeding programs.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10202836791819783&set=o.223049435573&type=3&theater
There was another mare bought via CANTER PA about 2 years ago who was selected for one of the WB breeding programs about 6 mos. later but I cannot find the info on her.
Shopping TB’s at the track requires an eye that can look into the future and see the horse with a whole new set of muscles and a new carriage.
In Holland the knowledge of Thoroughbreds has always been and still is very little. Although there were cavalry horses of a light type in Holland, any knowledge there might have been within the cavalry was hardly used when sport horse breeding started to take off in the 1960’s.
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Pahud_de_Mortanges
http://www.sportgeschiedenis.nl/2007/07/12/nederlands-goud-19.aspx
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/438359/Charles-Ferdinand-Pahud-de-Mortanges
http://www.yousaytoo.com/charles-ferdinand-pahud-de-mortanges-in-olympic-equestrian-eventing-eve/2465517
This rider’s horse Marcroix was by the French Thoroughbred Marsan out of the French mare Coquette. The horse was born in 1919.
It was Elizabeth Callahan’s mare. I forget her name, but she is a truly beautiful sport horse type.
[QUOTE=Linny;7594805]
I’d guess that this mare would be an asset to most breeding programs.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10202836791819783&set=o.223049435573&type=3&theater
There was another mare bought via CANTER PA about 2 years ago who was selected for one of the WB breeding programs about 6 mos. later but I cannot find the info on her.
Shopping TB’s at the track requires an eye that can look into the future and see the horse with a whole new set of muscles and a new carriage.[/QUOTE]
Dutch breeders success: http://www.kwpnlimburg.nl/2014/05/25/fokkersucces-golden-dream-slaagd-met-uitstekende-cijfers-voor-het-verrichtingsonderzoek/
Out of a Julio Mariner xx daughter. Approved by the KWPN.
http://www.kwpn.org/participating-stallions-spring-performance-test-2014/
