TB kills the jump?

[Angelico]

The number one problem that the modern Thoroughbred faces is the negative end of the placebo effect.

A startling number of people forget a horse is a horse. Breed generalizations would be nice guidelines if they were accurate, and as of right now most aren’t. The “look-at-what-I-can-do-I’m-amazing- I’m- a - trainer” crowd exploits stereotypes worse now than ever before. The added exposure of social media broadens the audience of people they can find that actually believe their crap, and naturally the lies and exaggerations are repeated, and spread by more inexperienced riders and continues exponentially growth, accelerating a problem that has been a growing issue in recent decades.

“LOOK AT ME on a TB!!! I’m really good!!!”

Unfortunately these are the sort that most knowledgeable people have come to associate with the TB. I piss a few of them off every year when rehoming horses that we retire from racing. I can spot the kind and rarely are they a good fit for ANY young horse, regardless of breed.

Every breed will face some bias. Fact of life, don’t take it personal. Every breed will have good and bad examples, plenty of each. Luckily most WB registries appreciate a nice horse, and will allow one of substantial quality into their books. The intelligent folks care about the quality in the individual horse, and that will never change.

[Elles]

[QUOTE=nutmeg;7591444]
That sounds like Harrie Smolders’ Regina Z who was just cloned by Zangersheide. By Rex z out of Just a Dream by Savoy Hanover. Just 20% TB according to Horsetelex. But the bottom of the pedigree could also enter the Hambletonian.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the dam for sure could have entered the Hambletonian:
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/513741
http://www.harriesmolders.com/nl/paarden/Regina-Z-Rex-Z-x-Savoy-Hanover
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=10712484&nm=2&time=1398438953

[andy.smaga]

[QUOTE=Elles;7589402]
But why would there no longer be stallions like Ladykiller, Cottage Son, Rantzau and Poet?[/QUOTE]
There are certainly TB stallions like the one you cited, but the difference is that the WB mare base is very different today than the WB mare base of 50 years ago.
For that reason the contribution of those sire is not needed as much today as it was back then.

[Elles]

On a German forum there are a number of people lamenting that there are quite a lot of tractors (heavy built horses) in Germany that could do with refining. And not all warmbloods were of a heavy type in (let’s say) the 1940’s: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=65765
http://www.horsetelex.de//horses/pedigree/19298

[andy.smaga]

Elles, you will always find exceptions, but you can’t build on them if you want to be successful in the long term.
Each breeder need to make his own decisions and then assume the consequences, I’m not trying to convince anybody.

[tom]

An article I wrote on this topic in 2008:
http://morningside-stud.com/gpage19.html

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=ladyj79;7591253]
Absolutely, just like the top performers of every discipline But some are more exceptional than others.[/QUOTE]

Meaning what, exactly? Some of the very best jumpers have been TBs, most of them American bred.

Nobody is really looking for that talent among American TBs anymore. It’s a shame and a loss of genetic diversity among top show jumpers.

[Elles]

[QUOTE=andy.smaga;7591539]
Elles, you will always find exceptions, but you can’t build on them if you want to be successful in the long term.
Each breeder need to make his own decisions and then assume the consequences, I’m not trying to convince anybody.[/QUOTE]

I know but at the time when the horses were generally much heavier there also were more TB stallions available. Now there are not so many heavy horses and also there are not so many TB stallions.

[ladyj79]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7591668]
Meaning what, exactly? Some of the very best jumpers have been TBs, most of them American bred.

Nobody is really looking for that talent among American TBs anymore. It’s a shame and a loss of genetic diversity among top show jumpers.[/QUOTE]

Never say nobody

I think you should read Tom’s article. It presents the perspective of many sport horse breeders more clearly and concisely than I could ever hope to do.

But in case you won’t bother, I’ll excerpt the end:

"In future years TBs will still be used in sport horse breeding but they will not enjoy a privileged status. Instead, they will be assessed as sires and broodmares in the same way that any sire or broodmare is assessed: athleticism, jumping technique, movement, rideability, conformation, trainability. The TB stallion will always be considered but his special role in sport horse breeding no longer exists. "

PS: Great article, Tom.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=ladyj79;7591776]
Never say nobody

I think you should read Tom’s article. It presents the perspective of many sport horse breeders more clearly and concisely than I could ever hope to do.

But in case you won’t bother, I’ll excerpt the end:

"In future years TBs will still be used in sport horse breeding but they will not enjoy a privileged status. Instead, they will be assessed as sires and broodmares in the same way that any sire or broodmare is assessed: athleticism, jumping technique, movement, rideability, conformation, trainability. The TB stallion will always be considered but his special role in sport horse breeding no longer exists. "

PS: Great article, Tom.[/QUOTE]

In case I won’t bother? Get over yourself. I read the article in 2008 and didn’t care for it much then either. It seems pretty obvious that TBs should be assessed on their own merits, like any other horse.

How many American breeders do you know who is out looking for TB jumping talent for the breeding shed? Real ones, not hypothetical ones. Usually all one gets on here are lectures from people with rejects from European breeding programs (and how over TBs they are even though they don’t know hardly anything about them). In case you feel a lecture coming on, save it. Not interested, and you won’t be “educating” me.

It’s not as though American breds are burning up the international jumping ring. Yes, point to Judgement and Silver Creek’s stallion Validation all you want, they are still exceptions, not typical cases.

[ladyj79]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7591942]
In case I won’t bother? Get over yourself. I read the article in 2008 and didn’t care for it much then either. It seems pretty obvious that TBs should be assessed on their own merits, like any other horse.

How many American breeders do you know who is out looking for TB jumping talent for the breeding shed? Real ones, not hypothetical ones. Usually all one gets on here are lectures from people with rejects from European breeding programs (and how over TBs they are even though they don’t know hardly anything about them). In case you feel a lecture coming on, save it. Not interested, and you won’t be “educating” me.

It’s not as though American breds are burning up the international jumping ring. Yes, point to Judgement and Silver Creek’s stallion Validation all you want, they are still exceptions, not typical cases.[/QUOTE]

You are oddly contentious and seem to think you and I are engaged in a conversation independent of the thread. I would never see fit to lecture you as I don’t even understand what position you are arguing that is contrary to anything I or anyone else has stated. Perhaps you could clarify?

Frank Chapot is looking at TB jumping talent for the breeding shed

[grayarabpony]

No I’m not being oddly contentious, you are being, well kind of annoying from my POV. And now you are pretending not to understand what I am saying?

Yes Frank Chapot is looking at a TB – a clone of a former champion.

Top jumper riders don’t go to the backstretch of racetracks looking for talent anymore; they go to Europe and get a horse that’s already jumping courses.

[ladyj79]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7591992]

Top jumper riders don’t go to the backstretch of racetracks looking for talent anymore; they go to Europe and get a horse that’s already jumping courses.[/QUOTE]

Right, that’s a fact.

What I don’t understand is what you are arguing, for or against. You are stating facts as if you are arguing some position that warrants this ongoing and pointed discussion. But they are facts which aren’t being disputed ie top horses of any breed are exceptions…which I had in fact stated, and you simply repeated as if you were disagreeing with me.

From what I can grasp of your position, and please correct me if I’m wrong, you feel it would be beneficial for more breeders and riders to seek out thoroughbreds for competing and breeding. Some people agree with you, and others do not. Such is life. This is a conversations breeders and riders engage in regularly, and the positions are pretty entrenched As someone who’s owned “exceptional” thoroughbreds, I personally go with Tom’s assessing individual horses on their merits. But as someone who has worked for breeders, I also know that most of the time you gotta go with a known quantity, both in terms of performance and marketability. Experimentation can have great rewards, but as was pointed out earlier, it’s often in hindsight.

All that aside, if I’m not mistaken, you love and respect thoroughbreds, and value their contribution to sport; me, too. So, again, I’m not sure why you honed in on me in particular to carry on this conversation, but that’s ok, enjoy your day.

[omare]

I took it to mean that-- yes–American thoroughbreds are not dominating the international or even national GP rings but neither are any American-bred of any breed showing up in the big ring which calls into play the broader question of how come US breeders are not being competitive breeders of jumpers (whatever your breed book preference) … and wow that is a whole other thread!

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=tom;7591576]
An article I wrote on this topic in 2008:
http://morningside-stud.com/gpage19.html[/QUOTE]

From Tom’s article:

“The second reason is that there has been a strong divergence in the last few decades between the phenotype of the successful racehorse and the phenotype of the successful sport horse. For example racehorses are bred to run fast over short or long distances; they are not bred to carry themselves in a way that much of their weight can be transferred to the hind legs. The structure of the body of the racehorse is not ideal for the job that is done by sport horses competing in the Olympic disciplines. Why would we expect them to reliably produce progeny that have the body structure required for our sports?”

I think this paragraph from Tom’s article is a subject that is often overlooked when the discussions about the use of modern TBs in sport horse breeding keeps coming up on these forums. I rarely see TBs today that offer the conformation necessary to produce sport horses.

[Elles]

Has Ireland a good mare base to produce a steady stream of good sport horses out of?

[SlamDunk]

[QUOTE=Elles;7592493]
Has Ireland a good mare base to produce a steady stream of good sport horses out of?[/QUOTE]

The woman I worked for over there did, she bred really nice modern sport horses. But I would also say most of the bloodlines she used were European.

[Elles]

And what kind of stallions did she use SlamDunk? Thoroughbred or warmblood?

Some of those Thoroughbred stallions in Ireland:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52ns20fhUTU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdkWVuQGf04
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC18KYgiYLw
I do not think that any of these has been tried at jumping or dressage.

[SlamDunk]

I don’t think she used any TB stallions, although I’m not 100% sure on all of the broodmares bloodlines. I know the ISH stallions like Lux, Cavalier etc are not TB, but not as sure about others like Clover Hill (half tb?), Diamond Lad etc.

[SEPowell]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;7592166]
From Tom’s article:

“The second reason is that there has been a strong divergence in the last few decades between the phenotype of the successful racehorse and the phenotype of the successful sport horse. For example racehorses are bred to run fast over short or long distances; they are not bred to carry themselves in a way that much of their weight can be transferred to the hind legs. The structure of the body of the racehorse is not ideal for the job that is done by sport horses competing in the Olympic disciplines. Why would we expect them to reliably produce progeny that have the body structure required for our sports?”

I think this paragraph from Tom’s article is a subject that is often overlooked when the discussions about the use of modern TBs in sport horse breeding keeps coming up on these forums. I rarely see TBs today that offer the conformation necessary to produce sport horses.[/QUOTE]

This is where I disagree. Yes, there are essentially two phenotypes, the tough sprinter and also the more classic distance horse. Distance horses do tend to have the phenotype for jumping but sport horse breeders can’t afford them. They’re very expensive to claim and impossible to breed to, but they’re there and it’s pretty easy to spot them. However they are a nonfactor for the sport horse breeder because their prices are prohibitive.