[QUOTE=stoicfish;7589636]
That’s like asking why there are no more race horses like Secretariat.
Great horses are never common.[/QUOTE]
Yes but there has been a Nasrullah, Turn-to, Buckpasser, Storm Cat, Sadler’s Wells, A. P. Indy, Unbridled, and Seeking the Gold, among many others. Good racehorses and/or stallions.
http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricSires/JumpSires/JumpShowroots.html There should be more like these around nowadays as well.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7590000]
So the horses in a 3 generation pedigree are not significant?
Jus de Pommes1996 double gold medal winner
grandsire/sire line is Night and Day, yes, 1957 TB.
Nothing further back is significant thank heavens because…
Unfortunately he also traces to Mirka du Fief 1956 (a mare!), Furioso 1939 (twice), Ultimate 1941, Micipsa 1940, Fra Diavolo 1938, Foudroyant 1938…
I’m stopping now. Mustn’t look at all those jump killers.[/QUOTE]
As from the very beginning, you keep coming back to stallions of 30 years ago. Their are very good horsmen that are always looking for the next Furioso. Jan Greve, I named earlyer, is responsible, amongst other, for the succes of Julio Mariner in the breeding shed. But they always say it is difficult finding them. Why is that? Their is no simple answer. Maybe the race breeding has evolved in a different direction.
Of course you can always point out here and there a TB that jumped over 1m40. That is great. BUt it doesn’t make them automaticaly good stallions. Even the Holsteiner Verband is activly looking for good TB and promoting the ones they have to the breeder. BUt generally, as mentionned in the quotation of Jan Greve I put earlier, TB will produce broodmares, with not as much jump, but their input will be of the upmost importance down the road.
It is not because the TB can jump, that it will pass this jump along. And it doesn’t need to. Their is already plenty of jump in the best warmblood dam lines. TB are not needed to add jumping capacity. They must bring refinement, reaction, quickness and all that is generaly associated with “blood”.
[QUOTE=Cumano;7590094]
As from the very beginning, you keep coming back to stallions of 30 years ago. Their are very good horsmen that are always looking for the next Furioso. Jan Greve, I named earlyer, is responsible, amongst other, for the succes of Julio Mariner in the breeding shed. But they always say it is difficult finding them. Why is that? Their is no simple answer. Maybe the race breeding has evolved in a different direction. [/QUOTE]
Honestly…it is difficult finding ANY top stallion of any breed. And with TBs…you are competing against racing which pays a hell of a lot more for their offspring and stud fees than any WB registries. People were throwing fits over 5K stud fees for a WB sire…when in the racing world, that is a lower end stallion.
Often, a sire who might throw outstanding jumping and sport horses ALSO can throw decent race horses…and if they are producing even mid level racers…they will be aimed in that direction because it is FAR more profitable.
People are acting like TBs are from a long time ago…I’m sorry…30-50 years is NOT a long time in the grand scheme of things. WB breeding has NOT been around and successful for very long. I can remember when everyone laughed at the first clunkers…I would have said THEY killed the jump in the TBs that they were breed too in that first F1 cross. So what did the WBs look like 50 years ago…not something that I wanted to ride. Funny…a lot now LOOK more like a TB then they used too…there is a reason for that…
But again…this gets back to breed bias…everyone thinks theirs is the best. They should as that is how you sell them. But WBs are basically mutts…that their registries are trying to bring some stamp of consistency to the mutt (and doing a pretty good job of it). The TBs are not a mutt…they are a breed. And an athletic and versatile one which still can without it being the purpose produce athletes competitive in any number of disciplines.
So again…I disagree that TB kills the jump of a WB…like all breeding, it is finding the right sire for your mare and knowing the family. Unfortunately, the stud fee on some of the right TB stallions is out of the range of most of us breeders because that sire also produces good race horses!
ETA: To give a basic example, the sire Deputy Minister seems to produce a very nice sport type of horse. But when he was standing at stud, his stud fee was $150,000. Very few of his direct off spring made it into the sport world because they were often damn good race horses. Now you can find more grandsons and daughters off the track…and many are working their way up the ranks as very good jumpers and a very desirable sport type…and showing that he is a good line to have for a sport horse. But no way could a sport horse breeder afford to have bred to him directly nor could we afford most of his daughters.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7589975]
No, but you can breed to it.
Gemini Twist is genetically identical to Gem Twist; he offers the same genetics…
And maybe we shouldn’t go back to the 1968 Olympics, the largest Olympic fences ever built; because it took a TB to win that one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2VpsxNy-Io
I don’t know where you think modern TB’s derive from?
They are descendants of the same ancestry as the great TB showjumpers (selected by luck or serendipity combined with a horseman’s eye) of the 1950’s, 1960’s and 1970’s because TBs are a closed registry and have been since long before WWII.
Jump killer TB Jet Run, age 6:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxEh1Sl7zLs
Or this one, note that TB Idle Dice is turning in the air over a huge oxer - that takes a bit of power…
He also won 3 GPs at age 21 - a fragile TB.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQUrqkAl4Lg
I am sure you hope there are no more TBs like these out there, keep telling people not to look![/QUOTE]
No…you can’t breed to it. If you could , you or someone else would have already done it.
Same as with Capitol in Holstein. Their days are over…the breeding has passed them by just as it has passed Darco by from Belgium and Nimmerdor from Holland. These great stallions couldn’t compete at today’s shows.
The sport evolves and so does the breeding. The breeding and sport has left the TB behind.
Education is what you need…educate yourself on what is being bred and produced for todays showring. Educate yourself to the fact that most of the buying public in the world does not want a TB sporthorse.
bornfreenowexpensive that is an interesting comment on Deputy Minister offspring being good in sport. I owned a mare by Temptor the full brother of Deputy Minister and that mare certainly had some scope. If those lines were good sport lines people should have potentially done some digging as they could have bred to the full brother for a lot less than $150,000 I am sure… I know it wouldn’t be the same but you would be getting the same bloodlines.
[QUOTE=adelmo95;7590518]
bornfreenowexpensive that is an interesting comment on Deputy Minister offspring being good in sport. I owned a mare by Temptor the full brother of Deputy Minister and that mare certainly had some scope. If those lines were good sport lines people should have potentially done some digging as they could have bred to the full brother for a lot less than $150,000 I am sure… I know it wouldn’t be the same but you would be getting the same bloodlines.[/QUOTE]
That’s what many do…but it still can be hard to find them. Also, many owners of such stallions do not want to bred if they are not going to be race horses…as it distorts their numbers from a marketing perspective…nor will they do AI. You can find a few…but it isn’t easy. It is a bit easier to luck into a mare with the breeding that you want.
As for DM…I did find a son of his that I probably could have afforded his stud fee (still would have been on the higher side) but he died the year I found him. I have a gelding by him…and found another that a friend bought on my advice bought as a competition horse. I had my eye on daughter but she is being too good of a race horse for me to afford. So finding sires…and then finding them that will breed to either non-TB mares or into a non-racing home can be hard.
Another example, there is a local stallion in MD called Rock Slide. He is the sire of one of my mares who is a very powerful jumper and very nice type. She has been mistaken for a WB because of her substance, movement and jump…to me, she is a classic good TB. Now…I like my mare’s dam line a ton but I’ve also seen a few other offspring of Rock Slide all with the scopey jump and a good sport type. He is by AP Indy who is producing a good sport type as well and Rockslide’s dam line is also has several good lines for jump in TB with several older proven lines (love Herbager and Hoist the Flag). Problem is…he is a decent regional producer of race horses (and the full brother of Mineshaft). So his stud fee this year is 2500…that is on the higher side for many WB stallions even if it is a lower fee for a race horse…and I doubt they would collect him for AI or do live cover on my WB mares.
Same thing with the sire of FairWeathers outstanding gelding. She tracked him down…and even seem to have gotten the breeders willing to collect him for some of us sport horse breeders…then he died this year before he could be collected. Crap happens. But many of us do study the TB lines and know the traits that are carried and try to find them for our programs.
Bayhawk may I ask you what you consider the bee’s knees these days?
[QUOTE=Elles;7590588]
Bayhawk may I ask you what you consider the bee’s knees these days?[/QUOTE]
A hybrid warmblood with cat like reflexes and explosive but not massive scope. Must have a good top line and be elastic up thru the entire topline.
Must be rideable enough to have great adjustability.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7590257]
No…you can’t breed to it. If you could , you or someone else would have already done it.
Same as with Capitol in Holstein. Their days are over…the breeding has passed them by just as it has passed Darco by from Belgium and Nimmerdor from Holland. These great stallions couldn’t compete at today’s shows.
The sport evolves and so does the breeding. The breeding and sport has left the TB behind.
Education is what you need…educate yourself on what is being bred and produced for todays showring. Educate yourself to the fact that most of the buying public in the world does not want a TB sporthorse.[/QUOTE]
Gemini’s first foal arrived in 2012, so it is a bit soon to write him off as a sire of successful showjumpers; or that his day is over.
Education id what everyone needs.
Confusing facts with short term opinion is not conducive to wise choices.
Most of the buying public? That certainly covers a lot of ground.
In my rather narrow experience, people want to buy performance first and foremost; pedigree is moot in a gelding and only important in a mare where the owner has resources to be a breeder.
Breeding to young stallions based on test scores is like breedinng to The Green Monkey TB to race because he had a superfast breeze and was sold for the highest price ever as a 2-yr old. Looks don’t make a performer in any sport, nor does free jumping prove a jumper any more than one breeze makes a racehorse.
Old and proven horses statistically have higher percentages of successful progeny than untried youngsters, but marketing the latest and hottest is rampant in any sport venue.
I am glad your mentors are aiding your success; don’t break a good system.
That isn’t to say other systems might prove successful depending on your goals.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7590672]
A hybrid warmblood with cat like reflexes and explosive but not massive scope. Must have a good top line and be elastic up thru the entire topline.
Must be rideable enough to have great adjustability.[/QUOTE]
That sounds very plausible.
[QUOTE=Elles;7590012]
Yes but there has been a Nasrullah, Turn-to, Buckpasser, Storm Cat, Sadler’s Wells, A. P. Indy, Unbridled, and Seeking the Gold, among many others. Good racehorses and/or stallions.
http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricSires/JumpSires/JumpShowroots.html There should be more like these around nowadays as well.[/QUOTE]
But the kicker with breeding is not just that they have the talent but that they can reliable pass it on. Ladykiller was great for what he passed on. That is a harder animal to find as you often seen them a bit in hindsight. In all of Wb breeding there is only a few stallions that had that type of impact, so you do not expect to find them often.
Also many top breeders do not want to risk their mares to try and prove it. Breeding has changed and so have the goals. There are less people thinking in generations and more thinking about the F1. Ideally, it should be both but the Tb’s F1 stats are not always as good as another stallion, so why take the profit loss to prove the point. Not saying this is the right approach, just what is happening.
I currently have a sales horse in by Coconut Grove who is 100% tb, qualified for the Olympics and the World Cup, and approved by all the big warmblood registries including the AHHA and the KWPN. He is out of an old style line bred Furioso Oldenburg mare. This guy just turned 7 and is a little behind in training, just schooling 1.1 m now, but he has an awesome powerful jump. Coconut Grove bred to this mare produced a lighter horse who is fast and catty with scope a pro would love. The tb in him did not kill the jump put instead produced a handy, catty, and hardworking horse. I’ve never met a horse with his work ethic and enthusiasm but I’m told it comes from the tb side. He’s going to make someone a great upper level jumper one day. Wish I could keep him!
I love Coconut Grove, although my horse is by another OH stallion.
That said, CG’s own website points out what a rare creature he was “Coconut Grove is the first Thoroughbred stallion in the U.S. to be granted a breeding
license by the American Holsteiner Horse Association and the American Hanoverian Society. He has 100% positive approval status with 9 European, 9 U.S. and 1 Canadian Registry, the only thoroughbred in U.S. history to accomplish this feat.”
I think everyone has either stated or conceded that there are exceptional individuals in every breed, but they are just that, exceptions.
Stoicfish makes the point pretty clearly “many top breeders do not want to risk their mares to try and prove it…There are less people thinking in generations and more thinking about the F1. Ideally, it should be both but the Tb’s F1 stats are not always as good as another stallion, so why take the profit loss to prove the point.”
Lady- I completely agree. Not all tbs are created equal and CG was a rare stallion. I was just giving an example of a big old style mare who crossed best with an exceptional tb stallion. Adding the tb in this instance was a great decision and an improvement on the mare. Breeding that same mare to a wb stallion has not produced as nice of a jump. There are very few tb stallions I would breed to, but the few, like CG, when crossed with the right mare, can improve the jump.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7590672]
A hybrid warmblood with cat like reflexes and explosive but not massive scope. Must have a good top line and be elastic up thru the entire topline.
Must be rideable enough to have great adjustability.[/QUOTE]
You can’t get more hybrid than a WB that has one TB parent.
When this horse is himself a winner and is the product of a champion Olympic showhorse and sire and a multi-champion producing dam -by different stallions; I would be quite excited to find a horse like that.
Special Memories (Trak), a GP jumper himself, by Abdullah (Trak) ex. Kluwall (XX) is exactly that.
-And a horse you would dismiss as the Stamm is TB. Not even Olympic producing TB is good enough for you.
I notice that you made no mention of performance record for your paragon.
[QUOTE=ladyj79;7591023]
I love Coconut Grove, although my horse is by another OH stallion.
That said, CG’s own website points out what a rare creature he was “Coconut Grove is the first Thoroughbred stallion in the U.S. to be granted a breeding
license by the American Holsteiner Horse Association and the American Hanoverian Society. He has 100% positive approval status with 9 European, 9 U.S. and 1 Canadian Registry, the only thoroughbred in U.S. history to accomplish this feat.”
I think everyone has either stated or conceded that there are exceptional individuals in every breed, but they are just that, exceptions.
Stoicfish makes the point pretty clearly “many top breeders do not want to risk their mares to try and prove it…There are less people thinking in generations and more thinking about the F1. Ideally, it should be both but the Tb’s F1 stats are not always as good as another stallion, so why take the profit loss to prove the point.”[/QUOTE]
Top show jumpers are exceptions in any breed or registry.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7591233]
Top show jumpers are exceptions in any breed or registry.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely, just like the top performers of every discipline 
But some are more exceptional than others.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7591115]
You can’t get more hybrid than a WB that has one TB parent.
When this horse is himself a winner and is the product of a champion Olympic showhorse and sire and a multi-champion producing dam -by different stallions; I would be quite excited to find a horse like that.
Special Memories (Trak), a GP jumper himself, by Abdullah (Trak) ex. Kluwall (XX) is exactly that.
-And a horse you would dismiss as the Stamm is TB. Not even Olympic producing TB is good enough for you.
I notice that you made no mention of performance record for your paragon.[/QUOTE]
No…A WB that has one TB parent is an F-1 half bred ,not a hybrid.
One example of a nice hybrid would be the Holsteiner Stallion Calinello by Calido / Lord / Masetto / Ramiro. Research that pedigree…
The person didn’t ask me for a performance record. They ask me what I thought made a great jumping competitior these days. A horse like I described will ultimately have a performance record.
People who breed a foal for eventing do still use a TB stallion on a warmblood mare and even some breeders who breed jumpers. In Holland the problem is that only older TB stallions are approved. At the moment it might turn out the stallion is a good one, the stallion is already dead.
In Germany:
http://www.dukeofheartsxx.de/
http://www.soederhof.de/duke.html
His son Duke of Harvard (XX/OX percentage: 68,75%) received a 9.5 for his jumping skills.
Are not most sport horses hybrids? Like for example this horse that jumps under Jeroen Dubbeldam (blood percentage around 53%): http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10986520&blood=10"a=
http://www.dehoefslag.nl/laatste-nieuws/springen/dubbeldam-en-zenith-sfn-bkader.html
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7590672]
A hybrid warmblood with cat like reflexes and explosive but not massive scope. Must have a good top line and be elastic up thru the entire topline.
Must be rideable enough to have great adjustability.[/QUOTE]
That sounds like Harrie Smolders’ Regina Z who was just cloned by Zangersheide. By Rex z out of Just a Dream by Savoy Hanover. Just 20% TB according to Horsetelex. But the bottom of the pedigree could also enter the Hambletonian.
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