TB kills the jump?

[supershorty628]

Yeah, I guess Bayhawk is right. Fairweather, your horse stinks, but that’s okay because mine does too, so we can just stay in the corner with our obviously untalented horses.

I really hate those darn Thoroughbreds that can’t jump around 1.50m, especially with an incompetent, slightly less capable than an amoeba, monkey for a rider.
But seriously, I can live with a scopeless, boring TBs like this one all day long. And actually, the more people who think like Bayhawk, the more easily I can afford more terrible horses!

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=supershorty628;7588975]
Yeah, I guess Bayhawk is right. Fairweather, your horse stinks, but that’s okay because mine does too, so we can just stay in the corner with our obviously untalented horses.

I really hate those darn Thoroughbreds that can’t jump around 1.50m, especially with an incompetent, slightly less capable than an amoeba, monkey for a rider.
But seriously, I can live with a scopeless, boring TBs like this one all day long. And actually, the more people who think like Bayhawk, the more easily I can afford more terrible horses![/QUOTE]

I never said anyones horses stink so don’t put words in my mouth.

I believe their place in history is cemented but also believe the TB’s future contribution is very , very limited in the production of top sporthorses other than eventing.

The WB’s of today are very hybrid in nature and really don’t need a straight TB stallion anymore. One can easily line breed to them to keep up the blood %

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=omare;7588974]
To me a closed stud book (and there are very few out there) is gong to have a much more difficult or impossible time keeping up with the specialty required of jumpers in this day.

Special Memories was my mothers stallion (out of Kluwall TB) and he jumped 1.6m world cup classes . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydCY98nQAkE-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5nE2-Jsf28-
He was quick, and had a great front end–but I wuuld have loved to have seen him crossed on an excellent holsteiner mare…and maybe will someday (if I keep saving my money.)[/QUOTE]

See Omare…this is the problem. You take a 1.60 meter jumping TB Stallion and would want to breed him to a Holsteiner mother rather than breeding him to a TB mare and creating a line of TB jumping horses. This is where American breeders went wrong.

[Foxtrot_s]

The day will come when there is a TB that can offer a lot to a WB pedigree and the non-closed books will accept him (her) to add freshness to a bloodline, or advance its type for the sport desired - I’ll bet.

That being said, my own mare is Holsteiner and if anybody messed with the dreamy, air cushion Holsteiner canter, I’d be so upset.

[Personal_Champ]

[QUOTE=supershorty628;7588593]
I am open to sharing, just know that I am small but mighty! :lol:[/QUOTE]

I am tall and mighty. We would make a great team. I am up for sharing!

[Elles]

Think of Lauries Crusador, many people thought that a TB is poison to dressage breeding but Lauries Crusador proved otherwise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebfSYjmu4I0

TB in sport horses:
http://www.saltacaballos.com.ar/detalles.asp?tipo=dac&id_ficha=72
http://www.saltacaballos.com.ar/detalles.asp?tipo=dac&offset=10&id_ficha=141

[andy.smaga]

[QUOTE=Cumano;7588602]
Almost all Selle Français references above point to a very few stallions, like Hand in Glove, Laudanum or Orange Peel.[/QUOTE]
Just to give some hard data from the stallions cited:

HAND IN GLOVE have a negative breeding index(-1) for producing a showjumper and a very high breeding index (+34) for producing an eventer

LAUDANUM has a correct breeding index (+17) for SJ

ORANGE PEEL was born in 1919, so no significant data available

If you look at the actual top WB stallions (talking Selle Français, this is what I know best):

BALOUBET DU ROUET breeding index (+28) for SJ
QUICK STAR breeding index (+28) for SJ
DIAMANT DE SEMILLY breeding index (+30) for SJ

Breeding indexes are the BLUP (Best linear Unbiased Predictor)

Yes Tb’s are very important in creating the modern Showjumper but in Europe we don’t have the equivalent of Orange Peel, Furioso, Rantzau or even the more recent Laudanum, Benroy or count Ivor.

My stallion (short listed for the WEG) is 50% TB but no tb is present in the last 3 generations (sorry for the small brag…)

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=andy.smaga;7589124]
Just to give some hard data from the stallions cited:

HAND IN GLOVE have a negative breeding index(-1) for producing a showjumper and a very high breeding index (+34) for producing an eventer

LAUDANUM has a correct breeding index (+17) for SJ

ORANGE PEEL was born in 1919, so no significant data available

If you look at the actual top WB stallions (talking Selle Français, this is what I know best):

BALOUBET DU ROUET breeding index (+28) for SJ
QUICK STAR breeding index (+28) for SJ
DIAMANT DE SEMILLY breeding index (+30) for SJ

Breeding indexes are the BLUP (Best linear Unbiased Predictor)

Yes Tb’s are very important in creating the modern Showjumper but in Europe we don’t have the equivalent of Orange Peel, Furioso, Rantzau or even the more recent Laudanum, Benroy or count Ivor.

My stallion (short listed for the WEG) is 50% TB but no tb is present in the last 3 generations (sorry for the small brag…)[/QUOTE]

What about Heraldik? What was his index.

I loved his son Herald 3 when I saw him jump at WEG 2010. He is 5/8 TB…by Heraldik.

[Bent_Hickory]

Here are the Hanoverian breeding indices for Heraldik:

http://service.vit.de/pferd_praesentation/Front?seite=DetailVb31Hvp&verband=31&aktion=FachobjektAnzeigen&sshw=598d98c9343d9f366348439a05f57007&keyPFID=062666282&kontext=Pferd&anzeigezweck=Hengstverteilungsplan

He is modestly above average (114 is less than one standard deviation above the mean) for jumping, but note his below average indices for type and foundation and movement. So while he didn’t necessarily hurt jump, he didn’t provide improvement to the other qualities WB breeders look for when using a TB stallion.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;7589202]
Here are the Hanoverian breeding indices for Heraldik:

http://service.vit.de/pferd_praesentation/Front?seite=DetailVb31Hvp&verband=31&aktion=FachobjektAnzeigen&sshw=598d98c9343d9f366348439a05f57007&keyPFID=062666282&kontext=Pferd&anzeigezweck=Hengstverteilungsplan

He is modestly above average (114 is less than one standard deviation above the mean) for jumping, but note his below average indices for type and foundation and movement. So while he didn’t necessarily hurt jump, he didn’t provide improvement to the other qualities WB breeders look for when using a TB stallion.[/QUOTE]

Which is interesting considering how sucessful many of his offspring were/are. My recollection was at WEG 2010 he had an offspring in all three disciplines. Not many sires of any breed are that sucessful.

[Bent_Hickory]

With regard to Lauries Crusader: “A Thoroughbred stallion like him who in the first generation produces Grand Prix horses, is very rare.” - Dr. Ludwig Christmann, Hanoverian Verband.

And for kicks, his breeding values: http://service.vit.de/pferd_praesentation/Front?seite=DetailVb31Hvp&verband=31&aktion=FachobjektAnzeigen&sshw=9aa946767222b0920e5f2c390934ade6&keyPFID=062413085&kontext=Pferd&anzeigezweck=Hengstverteilungsplan

Tremendous stallion with incredible breeding qualities, just not jumping. And only modest improvement to gaits.

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7589217]
Which is interesting considering how sucessful many of his offspring were/are. My recollection was at WEG 2010 he had an offspring in all three disciplines. Not many sires of any breed are that sucessful.[/QUOTE]

Exceptional individual offspring possibly, but maybe not consistent in his production overall. Of course, this is only his Hanoverian offspring. He may have faired better with other studbooks.

This is why WB BREEDERS are reluctant to use TB horses. Any individual offspring maybe exceptional, but objective measurements suggest otherwise.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=andy.smaga;7589124]
Just to give some hard data from the stallions cited:

HAND IN GLOVE have a negative breeding index(-1) for producing a showjumper and a very high breeding index (+34) for producing an eventer

LAUDANUM has a correct breeding index (+17) for SJ

ORANGE PEEL was born in 1919, so no significant data available

If you look at the actual top WB stallions (talking Selle Français, this is what I know best):

BALOUBET DU ROUET breeding index (+28) for SJ
QUICK STAR breeding index (+28) for SJ
DIAMANT DE SEMILLY breeding index (+30) for SJ

Breeding indexes are the BLUP (Best linear Unbiased Predictor)

Yes Tb’s are very important in creating the modern Showjumper but in Europe we don’t have the equivalent of Orange Peel, Furioso, Rantzau or even the more recent Laudanum, Benroy or count Ivor.

My stallion (short listed for the WEG) is 50% TB but no tb is present in the last 3 generations (sorry for the small brag…)[/QUOTE]

Congrats on that short list Andy ! Very nice accomplishment !

[Elles]

But why would there no longer be stallions like Ladykiller, Cottage Son, Rantzau and Poet?

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Elles;7589402]
But why would there no longer be stallions like Ladykiller, Cottage Son, Rantzau and Poet?[/QUOTE]

That’s like asking why there are no more race horses like Secretariat.
Great horses are never common.

[D_BaldStockings]

Great horsemen that can recognize talent are even rarer:
We need more Benny O’Meara’s

Purchased by Benny O’Meara on a buying trip to the Midwest in the fall of 1962, Untouchable was an ex-race horse.
With O’Meara in the saddle, he debuted on the Florida circuit in 1963 as an 11-year-old Green Jumper.
Untouchable wound up as Green Jumper Champion everywhere he went that spring before O’Meara turned him over to Kathy Kusner after her return from the 1963 Pan American Games.
Kusner capped Untouchable’s undefeated green season with the Open Jumper Championship at that year’s National Horse Show.
The combination went on to win five major classes in Europe that summer of 1964 including the Grand Prix at Dublin (The Irish Trophy) and other wins against Olympic competitors at Ostend and Rotterdam. …
Untouchable and Kusner helped the USET to Nations’ Cup wins at Dublin and Ostend before traveling to Tokyo for the Olympics where they placed 13th individually and helped the U.S. to a fourth place team finish. Upon their return to the States, Kusner and Untouchable helped the USET to Nations’ Cup wins at the National Horse Show, where Kusner was Leading International Rider, and at the Royal Agricultural Winter Fair in Toronto.

off track 10 yr old TB in fall.
Open jumper National Champion the next year.
Olympic mount in 2 years…
And Major GP and puissance winner thereafter.

Ben O’Meara also sold the 3 year old colt Good Twist to the Chapot’s -that would be Gem Twist’s sire.

Mr. O’Meara died at age 27.

You can call it fluke, or luck or whatever you want; keeping your eyes closed guarantees you won’t see greatness even if you stumble over it.

And if you don’t point them at a jump, you won’t know if the TB could have been the better horse.
If you don’t breed them, You won’t know if they could have the better progeny.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7589752]
Great horsemen that can recognize talent are even rarer:
We need more Benny O’Meara’s

Purchased by Benny O’Meara on a buying trip to the Midwest in the fall of 1962, Untouchable was an ex-race horse.
With O’Meara in the saddle, he debuted on the Florida circuit in 1963 as an 11-year-old Green Jumper.
Untouchable wound up as Green Jumper Champion everywhere he went that spring before O’Meara turned him over to Kathy Kusner after her return from the 1963 Pan American Games.
Kusner capped Untouchable’s undefeated green season with the Open Jumper Championship at that year’s National Horse Show.
The combination went on to win five major classes in Europe that summer of 1964 including the Grand Prix at Dublin (The Irish Trophy) and other wins against Olympic competitors at Ostend and Rotterdam. …
Untouchable and Kusner helped the USET to Nations’ Cup wins at Dublin and Ostend before traveling to Tokyo for the Olympics where they placed 13th individually and helped the U.S. to a fourth place team finish. Upon their return to the States, Kusner and Untouchable helped the USET to Nations’ Cup wins at the National Horse Show, where Kusner was Leading International Rider, and at the Royal Agricultural Winter Fair in Toronto.

off track 10 yr old TB in fall.
Open jumper National Champion the next year.
Olympic mount in 2 years…
And Major GP and puissance winner thereafter.

Ben O’Meara also sold the 3 year old colt Good Twist to the Chapot’s -that would be Gem Twist’s sire.

Mr. O’Meara died at age 27.

You can call it fluke, or luck or whatever you want; keeping your eyes closed guarantees you won’t see greatness even if you stumble over it.

And if you don’t point them at a jump, you won’t know if the TB could have been the better horse.
If you don’t breed them, You won’t know if they could have the better progeny.[/QUOTE]

Events from more than 50 years ago in 1962 & 1963 and still talking about Gem Twist ! This record is not broken…it’s long since shattered by now.

You can’t bring back the past…

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7589852]
Events from more than 50 years ago in 1962 & 1963 and still talking about Gem Twist ! This record is not broken…it’s long since shattered by now.

You can’t bring back the past…[/QUOTE]

No, but you can breed to it.

Gemini Twist is genetically identical to Gem Twist; he offers the same genetics…

And maybe we shouldn’t go back to the 1968 Olympics, the largest Olympic fences ever built; because it took a TB to win that one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2VpsxNy-Io

I don’t know where you think modern TB’s derive from?

They are descendants of the same ancestry as the great TB showjumpers (selected by luck or serendipity combined with a horseman’s eye) of the 1950’s, 1960’s and 1970’s because TBs are a closed registry and have been since long before WWII.

Jump killer TB Jet Run, age 6:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxEh1Sl7zLs

Or this one, note that TB Idle Dice is turning in the air over a huge oxer - that takes a bit of power…
He also won 3 GPs at age 21 - a fragile TB.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQUrqkAl4Lg

I am sure you hope there are no more TBs like these out there, keep telling people not to look!

[D_BaldStockings]

TB 'chasers even nowadays seem to get over the jumps…

http://www.mitigait.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/steeplechase-beftair.jpg

Jump killers all!

http://horseracingtripsworldwide.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Velka-Pardubicka.jpg

-Last I checked the Grand Pardubice was held in continental Europe, for those who think there is nothing to work with TB wise in Europe…
Closer travel distance for Europeans than going East Coast to West Coast in the USA.

[D_BaldStockings]

So the horses in a 3 generation pedigree are not significant?

Jus de Pommes1996 double gold medal winner

grandsire/sire line is Night and Day, yes, 1957 TB.

Nothing further back is significant thank heavens because…
Unfortunately he also traces to Mirka du Fief 1956 (a mare!), Furioso 1939 (twice), Ultimate 1941, Micipsa 1940, Fra Diavolo 1938, Foudroyant 1938…

I’m stopping now. Mustn’t look at all those jump killers.