[QUOTE=findeight;7017811]
But what they charge as one of the very top barns in the nation is no secret and most of it has nothing to do with any litigation.[/QUOTE]
That’s true. Heritage’s defense is that they didn’t sell the pony. Have you read their motion to dismiss?
[QUOTE=Kryswyn;7017582]
Yes, he had laminitis they were trying to hide… ;)[/QUOTE]
Nothing some more “HS Meds” can’t fix, right? 
[QUOTE=Discobold;7017820]
That’s true. Heritage’s defense is that they didn’t sell the pony. Have you read their motion to dismiss?[/QUOTE]
Despite the fact learning to use my phone has created a tremendous time waster, I really haven’t had the time or inclination to delve into legal tomes. But, yes, I was aware they did not sell the Pony and this is not a particularly unusual version
of the place the blame game.
I will say if owners said no charges without itemization, not just “HS meds”, the resulting transparency would help a lot. Yeah, they can lie but that’s no reason not to demand it and most barns are, really, not actively trying to screw their clients lest the gravy train run off the rails.
My mom used to say “buying them is the cheap part.” But I’m pretty sure she’d flop over dead if she saw these bills!!! I will NEVER complain about my trainers fees again! $75 to ship 30 minutes away? I’ll gladly pay it after seeing that! HOLY MOLEY!!!
[QUOTE=chunky munky;7017502]
@ Martha, likely you don’t know about Jimmy’s tack, as it is not commercial or sold at many tack shops. Its kind of the high end. Quality of leather and workmanship will last you about 50 years if you take care of it. So the cost is not significant when you add up the years it will serve you.[/QUOTE]
If her daughter’s still showing ponies in 50 years, I’m filing a protest.
[QUOTE=supershorty628;7017816]
WA, I thought this post was pretty unnecessary. This doesn’t need to be an “us versus them” thing… and frankly, most people are not spending that kind of money, but you can still ride with a BNT in Westchester. And there’s no reason to be attacking the riding ability of anyone just based on speculation.
JMHO, of course, and obviously I’m biased since I’m born and raised in Westchester (although not with anywhere NEAR that kind of money)… but all of the people I know work super hard.[/QUOTE]
FWIW, I agree…most of these kids work really hard. This little kid is riding/showing 6 equines…not many of us ammies ride that much (jobs and families might preclude it–but that doesn’t mean we should put down their efforts when we can’t replicate them).
It is still sobering to reflect on how much money does matter in this sport. You are incredibly talented – Just think how far ahead you would be with a string of 6 Nikkis. It is hard to get to and stay at the top with one horse even in Westchester, as I am sure you know very well.
Sometimes it feels like tilting at windmills for all of us. Then we go out and ride our horses, and it all feels better again.
Agree xmillion think of Lillie Kennan, Jacob Pope, Daisy Farish, Tori Colvin, Alex Crown, Samantha Schafer etc. All of these kids have work ethic and most of them have cash behind them.
The reality is that for me, there IS an “us against them” - but it’s not financial. I’ve always been a have-not among the haves. I figured out when I was about 10 that it’s not worth making yourself miserable over what you CANNOT afford to do.
For me, the “us against them” is “Do you need to drug your horse to find 8 jumps or do you not.” Plenty of names mentioned are BFFs with Our Friend Maggie, so let’s get real and cut the cr*p, and if those riders really want to be perceived as the best, maybe they better have a very frank discussion with their trainers.
Well, as others have said, the charges for this top barn are generally in line with what I would expect from a VBNT’s program, on the road with multiple horses.
But although there are certainly many people at WEF and elsewhere that can and do “pay the freight,” at those rates, there are likewise many others who do so for considerably less. It’s obviously still not cheap, for sure. But the vast majority of exhibitors are definitively not paying $30K per horse show, even for 6 horses.
The last year I had a horse at WEF for the season, a couple of years ago, I seem to recall it was around 12 grand. That’s still a lot of money, but nowhere near the stratospheric BNT rates, obviously. However, we did not have a fancy set up, an army of grooms, or any of the associated expenses of a BNT barn, either. Just the trainer, his working student/assistant and some casual help. When my horse went to the ring with a pro rider, I set the jumps and knocked off her boots. We were competitive enough to get some prizes. It can be done.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;7017849]
If her daughter’s still showing ponies in 50 years, I’m filing a protest.[/QUOTE]
Yeahbut, If the person who bought that Jimmy bridle takes even basic care and keeps track of it, not leaves it in the barn pile to be hauled hither and yon whether her ponies are going or not? Her grand kids can use it and then sell it on.
That Jimmy I bought in 93 or 4 for around 600? Somebody just offered me over a hundred for it. I said no, it’s old and I would never trust used bridles. They said but its a Jimmy…
I don’t get the point of this thread TBH.
The numbers on the first page are insane, yeah, but that’s for 6 horses showing several times a month at top shows with a top barn. If you scroll down, it says full training and a stall is about $3400 per horse. That’s not at all an unusual rate in the most expensive area in the country with a winning trainer.
And I completely agree with the person who said she’s working very hard. Riding that many ponies at age 12 is not easy.
[QUOTE=War Admiral;7017913]
The reality is that for me, there IS an “us against them” - but it’s not financial. I’ve always been a have-not among the haves. I figured out when I was about 10 that it’s not worth making yourself miserable over what you CANNOT afford to do.
For me, the “us against them” is “Do you need to drug your horse to find 8 jumps or do you not.” Plenty of names mentioned are BFFs with Our Friend Maggie, so let’s get real and cut the cr*p, and if those riders really want to be perceived as the best, maybe they better have a very frank discussion with their trainers.[/QUOTE]
THANK YOU ! THANK YOU ! THANK YOU! for those children starting out who are financially blessed to be able to dedicate their time and effort into 3 or 4 or more ponies , they are never given the option of a drug free round , it is a matter of course , they don’t get to have that conversation with their trainer.
But WA and Mikes, that’s an assumption. It’s an assumption that is made a LOT on this forum. Actually, I would say that in general, this forum as a whole likes to villify BNTs.
Yeah, maybe some people drug. Who knows, other than the people directly involved with the situation and perhaps those reading the drug test results? But these blanket statements are, IMHO, just as ridiculous as spending that much money on ponies for children.
You don’t know who drugs and who doesn’t (neither do I, but I do know for sure that that never goes on in my barn!), so maybe the generalizations about finding 8 jumps solely because of drugs aren’t realistic either. It’s almost starting to sound like the whole color bias thing - “well, she only did well because her horse was drugged!!!1!1” You don’t know that. Is it a possibility? I suppose. Is it the vast majority of the people showing? Strongly doubt it.
JMHO, which I know isn’t popular on this board, and just would like to point out (again) that regardless of who signed as trainer for Heritage, they have never had a drug infraction, so again, I wouldn’t be throwing stones at them.
[QUOTE=War Admiral;7017775]
Don’t be intimidated by the money factor. Reality is, most of these people don’t ride that well. Why else do you think the whole mag thing got started? Why else do you think Heritage is billing out mysterious line items like “Supplies” and “HS Meds”?[/QUOTE]
Yes, yes. Exactly.
I don’t see how drugging a pony makes it a sure thing for the rider to find 8 jumps. I could drug my horse to kingdom come and still have a somewhat erratic eye for distance, personally…
[QUOTE=findeight;7017922]
Yeahbut, If the person who bought that Jimmy bridle takes even basic care and keeps track of it, not leaves it in the barn pile to be hauled hither and yon whether her ponies are going or not? Her grand kids can use it and then sell it on.
That Jimmy I bought in 93 or 4 for around 600? Somebody just offered me over a hundred for it. I said no, it’s old and I would never trust used bridles. They said but its a Jimmy…[/QUOTE]
A Jimmy’s bridle is an investment? It can be used for 50 years with basic care and then sold? But you won’t trust used bridles, categorically, and wouldn’t sell your Jimmy’s for 1/6th the original price?
I have seen 50 year old bridles that are still being used. I wouldn’t buy any of 'em.
Sorry for a small detour in a small detour of a thread.
You can find the overall rate not surprising but still find some of the line items a little weird. I haven’t pored over these bills but there are some things that seem to be marked up for no apparent reason and others that make sense. I mean, Heritage was making a small mint off this client-- they needed to triple mark up the name plates on top?! And some items that are broken out logically and others that are grouped in mysterious ways. Who cares how many name plates I got. I want to know what you injected my horse with?!
But for purposes of the lawsuit, this does seem to indicate that the ponies were getting a LOT of drugs/therapies and then even MORE at the show. And the invoices don’t specify WHAT was done. It’s possible that the undifferentiated “Show Meds” charge included blocking the feet. And if it did, it’s also possible that the owner didn’t know. She certainly couldn’t derive it from the invoices alone. $200 for “Show Meds” could have been a bunch of Perfect Prep (super marked up) or a syringe of lidocane or a Legend shot. Who knows?!
No idea if any of that happened… but it does beg the question of what accounting ANYONE had of what meds were given to what pony and when?! Especially when it appears every pony was getting a whole heck of a lot of stuff all the time.
As a trainer, an attorney will advise you to never name and itemize drugs. I am not endorsing this practice, just saying that i had been advised that as well as many others in the business that i know.
You are right that this board tends to hate on trainers for the most part. There are often two sides to the coin.
Re: the bills? Some of the pony moms love to brag about how much they pay their trainer to each other. Just goes with the territory.
[QUOTE=vxf111;7017951]
You can find the overall rate not surprising but still find some of the line items a little weird. I haven’t pored over these bills but there are some things that seem to be marked up for no apparent reason and others that make sense. I mean, Heritage was making a small mint off this client-- they needed to triple mark up the name plates on top?! And some items that are broken out logically and others that are grouped in mysterious ways. Who cares how many name plates I got. I want to know what you injected my horse with?!
But for purposes of the lawsuit, this does seem to indicate that the ponies were getting a LOT of drugs/therapies and then even MORE at the show. And the invoices don’t specify WHAT was done. It’s possible that the undifferentiated “Show Meds” charge included blocking the feet. And if it did, it’s also possible that the owner didn’t know. She certainly couldn’t derive it from the invoices alone. $200 for “Show Meds” could have been a bunch of Perfect Prep (super marked up) or a syringe of lidocane or a Legend shot. Who knows?!
No idea if any of that happened… but it does beg the question of what accounting ANYONE had of what meds were given to what pony and when?! Especially when it appears every pony was getting a whole heck of a lot of stuff all the time.[/QUOTE]
Don’t forget show tack trunk rental per month…
The OWNERS are in the best position to question charges and also in a position to pull the financial plug if they care. We don’t have all the details and alot of assumptions are going on.
Most do, some don’t and I can’t figure why somebody would keep forking over for a considerable amount of time, acquire more animals under the same trainer and then cry foul…look at what I was being charged…
There are other barns besides the VBNTs that can turn out a winner and people who actually read their invoices frequently move over disputes, that option is always open. If you think you are getting screwed? Move.
Lots of trainers, lots of horses, lots of Ponies out there. And not everybody is on the “HS meds” train either despite what you read on here… But part of that is because the OWNERS take some responsibilty.
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