The one thing that confuses me, is that if the child was described as a “beginning hunter rider” for the pony purchase, how was that child riding 6 ponies at shows? Or, were there other family children or pro kid riders competing on the other 4-5? If you have 3-4 children competing at the highest levels, yeah, open the checkbook.
I only feel sorry for the ponies
Not the gullible, rich parents, not the trainers (hey, get what the market will bear, not up to us normal people to decide what’s out of line. I don’t have a personal chef, but if I played in that sandbox, I would. ) not even, really, the kids, because they already know how “special” their lives are. They are different, and that’s just the way it is.
Should a trainer of a gazillion dollar pony be upfront? Sure. Should a pony mom/buyer at that level (or any other) be more careful? Of course. But don’t get all snotty about everything now because you failed to ask and confirm the right information to begin with.
At the end of the day, it will come down to who has the most money to spend on the best lawyer, it always does. Or they’ll settle for “an undisclosed” amount, and the guessing games will go on for ever.
What I don’t understand is, unless you are a pony seller or a pony buyer, why anyone cares? It’s not any different than what goes on in this industry ever day. The only difference in ANY of it, is the amount of zeros on the end of the check.
Is it okay to rip off people as long as they are rich 
? Or only if they’re very rich ?
[QUOTE=Plumcreek;7018215]
The one thing that confuses me, is that if the child was described as a “beginning hunter rider” for the pony purchase, how was that child riding 6 ponies at shows? Or, were there other family children or pro kid riders competing on the other 4-5? If you have 3-4 children competing at the highest levels, yeah, open the checkbook.[/QUOTE]
I would not classify the rider as a “beginning rider”… granted I don’t know her, don’t know how good she is etc… but she is showing at the upper echelons of the small pony hunter division at the biggest shows in the country, not short stirrup at some local show, therefore to most of us in the show world would probably not consider that being a “beginner”. That said, in the courts, I’m sure they wanted to emphasize the age of the rider and the safety concerns that would along with that. How best to do that than to call her a beginning rider.
[QUOTE=Mayaty02;7018239]
I would not classify the rider as a “beginning rider”… granted I don’t know her, don’t know how good she is etc… but she is showing at the upper echelons of the small pony hunter division at the biggest shows in the country, not short stirrup at some local show, therefore to most of us in the show world would probably not consider that being a “beginner”. That said, in the courts, I’m sure they wanted to emphasize the age of the rider and the safety concerns that would along with that. How best to do that than to call her a beginning rider.[/QUOTE]
If you read the lawsuit, it specifically names the rider as being a beginner, and that the pony is suitable for a beginner rider.
Beginner riders don’t usually go to finals, so kind of negates the validity of that statement right there.
[QUOTE=Sansena;7018267]
If you read the lawsuit, it specifically names the rider as being a beginner, and that the pony is suitable for a beginner rider.
Beginner riders don’t usually go to finals, so kind of negates the validity of that statement right there.[/QUOTE]
Doubt the attorney is an equestrian herself and there were a couple horsey lingo things that seemed to me got lost in translation. I think what they were TRYING to convey is not that the kid was a beginner skill-wise but relatively new to AA level showing.
[QUOTE=War Admiral;7017775]
You do what they DON’T do: you work at home, really really hard, and you and horsie do not set foot on a trailer until you are both ready to go there and put the “show” in “horse show”.
Don’t be intimidated by the money factor. Reality is, most of these people don’t ride that well. Why else do you think the whole mag thing got started? Why else do you think Heritage is billing out mysterious line items like “Supplies” and “HS Meds”?[/QUOTE]
Thing is, what the HECK are they getting for their money? I can MAYBE see dropping that sort of cash if I’m routinely flipping the horses in question for $150k-250k or more, but are they seriously spending tens of thousands to take a horse to a show and hop around and get a fifty-cent ribbon and maybe a bigger one and a cooler or something? Even if this is really out there, I’m doing the math taking like 30-50% off some of these costs and it STILL works out to be more than most people I know make in a year. They’re spending slightly less per year than I’ve spent in FIVE years of a pretty darned expensive hobby (I figure I spend $7200-8000/year on dancing, not including dresses) PLUS what I spend on the horse even when I was paying board (and I have a bad habit of “Hey, I don’t actually NEED this halter/feed sup/set of buckets/whatever but wouldn’t it look nice and I’m in the tack store ANYWAY…”) What the HECK kind or ROI are they getting for that kind of money? I could campaign a mid-level racehorse for less.
Few people in the judicial system know much about horse showing or if one is a beginner. This is clearly a ploy to make those getting sued to look bad, as in"how could they sell an animal they know is unfit and dangerous to a little girl who could easily be injured on it???" Typical lawyer stuff.
[QUOTE=chunky munky;7018280]
Few people in the judicial system know much about horse showing or if one is a beginner. This is clearly a ploy to make those getting sued to look bad, as in"how could they sell an animal they know is unfit and dangerous to a little girl who could easily be injured on it???" Typical lawyer stuff.[/QUOTE]
Even if she’s the most experienced pony jock on earth… she still IS a little girl and she COULD get injured if she was riding a foundered pony with blocked feet and didn’t know it. I don’t think the skill of the rider matters much when we’re talking about a child’s safety on an (allegedly) drugged pony.
[QUOTE=danceronice;7018274]
Thing is, what the HECK are they getting for their money? I can MAYBE see dropping that sort of cash if I’m routinely flipping the horses in question for $150k-250k or more, but are they seriously spending tens of thousands to take a horse to a show and hop around and get a fifty-cent ribbon and maybe a bigger one and a cooler or something? Even if this is really out there, I’m doing the math taking like 30-50% off some of these costs and it STILL works out to be more than most people I know make in a year. They’re spending slightly less per year than I’ve spent in FIVE years of a pretty darned expensive hobby (I figure I spend $7200-8000/year on dancing, not including dresses) PLUS what I spend on the horse even when I was paying board (and I have a bad habit of “Hey, I don’t actually NEED this halter/feed sup/set of buckets/whatever but wouldn’t it look nice and I’m in the tack store ANYWAY…”) What the HECK kind or ROI are they getting for that kind of money? I could campaign a mid-level racehorse for less.[/QUOTE]
They are getting the opportunity to train and show with one of the sport’s most successful programs. Many aspire to be winners in the big eq, higher level jumpers/GP and international teams, etc.
Unless you consider that some of the juniors who ride with Heritage (or similar VBNTs) may someday want to turn pro themselves, it’s not essentially an investment; it’s a (very expensive) hobby.
By comparison, presumably you could dance around your living room for free, but you prefer to pay someone to coach you or take you to competitions or whatever. It’s a hobby, and it costs $$$ to do it the way you want.
The people who are spending that sort of money on horseshows, with multiple horses in VBNT programs, on the road 40+ weeks a year, are not generally the kind of people who have to budget for that expense. They are wealthy enough for the impact of those costs to be comparable to what the rest of us might spend on board/training/local shows. (And remember that, to the great majority of the horse loving population, THOSE expenses often seem outrageous and extreme.)
[QUOTE=2ndyrgal;7018221]
Not the gullible, rich parents, not the trainers (hey, get what the market will bear, not up to us normal people to decide what’s out of line. I don’t have a personal chef, but if I played in that sandbox, I would. ) not even, really, the kids, because they already know how “special” their lives are. They are different, and that’s just the way it is.
Should a trainer of a gazillion dollar pony be upfront? Sure. Should a pony mom/buyer at that level (or any other) be more careful? Of course. But don’t get all snotty about everything now because you failed to ask and confirm the right information to begin with.
At the end of the day, it will come down to who has the most money to spend on the best lawyer, it always does. Or they’ll settle for “an undisclosed” amount, and the guessing games will go on for ever.
What I don’t understand is, unless you are a pony seller or a pony buyer, why anyone cares? It’s not any different than what goes on in this industry ever day. The only difference in ANY of it, is the amount of zeros on the end of the check.[/QUOTE]
I care because as someone without those deep pockets, I want pros to know about cases where a client who was getting ripped off in a “normal industry practice” way got nailed.
I want other pros to know that precisely because I don’t have the money to mount a lawsuit like that myself. What happens at the top of our industry seems to set the standard of behavior for others. I’m not cool with trainers, vets or anyone else glad-handing clients, so I’m grateful to the ones with the chutzpah and the bucks who say No.
[QUOTE=Sansena;7018267]
If you read the lawsuit, it specifically names the rider as being a beginner, and that the pony is suitable for a beginner rider.
Beginner riders don’t usually go to finals, so kind of negates the validity of that statement right there.[/QUOTE]
This “suitability” issue isn’t the biggest deal. If the thing ain’t sound, it’s suitable for no one— whether the plaintiffs were trying to pull a fast one by convincing a court that a little kid in pig tails on a small pony was someone particularly worthy of the law’s protection or not.
I don’t believe she’s a beginner per say yet she is a small child. If this pony was blocked for her to ride him that is dangerous in itself if the rider did not know. And the problem is even if the rider knew in this case she is a child and idk if something was to go wrong if she would know what to do or know the feel that something was wrong and to pull up.
@vxf Keyword: Alledgedly
Part of the issue (not in the lawsuit maybe) is that the VBNTs and VB Shows know they can get that range of $$$$$$ from clients, so they charge what that market will bear. Doesn’t matter to them about the rest of the horse world if everyone else is priced out of Showing.
[QUOTE=mvp;7018301]
I care because as someone without those deep pockets, I want pros to know about cases where a client who was getting ripped off in a “normal industry practice” way got nailed.
I want other pros to know that precisely because I don’t have the money to mount a lawsuit like that myself. What happens at the top of our industry seems to set the standard of behavior for others. I’m not cool with trainers, vets or anyone else glad-handing clients, so I’m grateful to the ones with the chutzpah and the bucks who say No.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Lucassb;7018289]
They are getting the opportunity to train and show with one of the sport’s most successful programs. Many aspire to be winners in the big eq, higher level jumpers/GP and international teams, etc.
Unless you consider that some of the juniors who ride with Heritage (or similar VBNTs) may someday want to turn pro themselves, it’s not essentially an investment; it’s a (very expensive) hobby.
By comparison, presumably you could dance around your living room for free, but you prefer to pay someone to coach you or take you to competitions or whatever. It’s a hobby, and it costs $$$ to do it the way you want.
The people who are spending that sort of money on horseshows, with multiple horses in VBNT programs, on the road 40+ weeks a year, are not generally the kind of people who have to budget for that expense. They are wealthy enough for the impact of those costs to be comparable to what the rest of us might spend on board/training/local shows. (And remember that, to the great majority of the horse loving population, THOSE expenses often seem outrageous and extreme.)[/QUOTE]
Like I said, I spend about $7-8000/YEAR on lessons (probably throw in $1500 or so for comps as I don’t dance a lot of rounds) and among my teachers and coaches I include a Blackpool finalist and World-certified judges (ie the “BNTs” of the dance world.) There are people who spend a lot more, and spending a lot more usually guarantees better results because more lessons = better dancing but even many of the best of the best aren’t dropping that kind of money (and in Open scholarships are winning a good chunk of it back. Even I pick up $50-75 a comp here and there.) And those who drop the money but don’t practice or learn anything still bomb at comps (maybe a sixth if they’ve got a REALLY connected pro so they aren’t too offended.) Also comes with a built-in social scene, transferable skills and I even got a job out of it back in Boston (studio owner hired me as a receptionist.)
Most of these costs for a pony show are not guaranteeing anything but the trainer making a whopping profit and a cheap-@$$ ribbon if the kid’s really, really lucky. Yeah, some might go pro someday, but what are the odds?
I know people have money and they can spend it on what they want, but for the majority of people in the world including the “1%” they didn’t get that money just by existing. Even stock trading and investing is not that easy (believe me, I know, how do you think I pay for things?) And it CAN be done more cheaply, so why spend the money when 99% of the time, you get absolutely nothing to show for it other than those proverbial fifty-cent ribbons (and I note that when it’s the “po’ folks” complaining about getting slaughtered by the professional ammies, the response is ‘it’s JUST a ribbon, it’s not that important.’) If I had that kind of money and my kid wanted to flush $30,000 down the toilet on Pony Finals, the answer would be no.
[QUOTE=chunky munky;7018318]
@vxf Keyword: Alledgedly[/QUOTE]
???
All the allegations are alleged and not proven at this stage of the litigation. Some seem more controversial (i.e. the pony was drugged) than others (i.e. the child is indeed a child, she did indeed train with Heritage). But at this stage, everything is alleged. Some will probably be disputed.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7018321]
Part of the issue (not in the lawsuit maybe) is that the VBNTs and VB Shows know they can get that range of $$$$$$ from clients, so they charge what that market will bear. Doesn’t matter to them about the rest of the horse world if everyone else is priced out of Showing.[/QUOTE]
Not sure how our comments fit together with respect to this invoice. To me, that’s a separate issue from the lawsuit.
I do appreciate the client who doesn’t get the full benefit of a PPE suing about that. After all, the PPE was designed explicitly as a protection against the problem of dishonest horse trading. And you don’t need to be a horseman to know that our industry is just notorious for that.
I don’t care about huge bills. If someone wants to pay that, whatevs. I do care about vague or padded bills. Again, I’d like clients to demand transparency so that I’m not the only one doing it.
The expenses at Heritage are high but not higher than similar BNTs. Most of them overcharge because they have the clientele that can pay, and also helps to cover the expenses of their own investment horses. A farrier charges a certain amount because it covers some of the barn horses as well. I had the same farrier in PA charge $150.00 but when he came to Westchester it was $400.00 since the trainer’s horses had to be covered.
The same with horse transportation. At times the trainers are transporting sale horses, or horses for their working students, etc. They try to distribute the expenses among their clients. And the medications, massage therapists,etc.
Trainers also work very hard socializing with judges(might include dinners/drinks) and making sure they know which students/or horses they are eagerly promoting.
So when you ride at a BNB, you know that it is a boutique versus shopping at Walmart.
[QUOTE=Chall;7017628]
Have you checked out Westchester barns lately? This is normal,non- BNT normal.[/QUOTE]
Well yea, I live there and was paying board there not even two years ago.
Which is why I was asking if this seems high for a BNT from any other area. Do the top barns in less expensive area still reach this pricing? Do they exceed it?
