The good ones - BNTs

[Demerara_Stables]

I think a big problem with clinics in particular, that result in clinicians behaving badly, is that we all (owners, riders, and clinicians) think that we can fix so much in one day/one weekend, and that’s just not true. The pressure to teach this/fix that simply should not exist in a clinic setting. I’m far from talented enough to teach a full clinic, but I’ve covered for many trainers when they’re away at shows, and there are so many things that I consider basic that are missing in horse/rider combos. I spend most of my time teaching people to let go of their horse’s faces, getting the horses going forward, and establishing trust in the partnership. I rarely teach a “new” concept until lesson 3 or 4. Maybe the people I’ve worked with have skipped the basics, but it happens over and over again. That doesn’t even account for the massive changes in horse management that most of these horses need (that of course I can’t really change as a visiting instructor).

Maybe we should lower our clinic expectations, and start speaking up when we think things are being rushed. Getting a horse to balance themselves long and low on a long rein should be seen as a success for a horse that hasn’t done it. We don’t all need to piaffe at the end of the clinic.

[Bogey2]

I think the expectations can be misunderstood. I had a great clinic/symposium with Christoph Hess when my horse was a 4 yr old. He was 17.2 and a born curler. We had three to four horses in each session all the same age. Hess told the other riders in my group to let their horses out long and low. He told me to shorten my reins not ride my horse long and low! He then explained to the auditors that my horse was very loose and lateral and should be ridden up to the hand to strengthen his hind quarters before he was ever to be long and low.

I am adding Hess to the list of the good ones

[ThreeFigs]

I completely agree, with you Demerara_Stables.

I would add that people who attend multiple clinics with different clinicians are likely to get conflicting advice. Too many cooks spoiling the broth, you know.

Find one good teacher and stick with 'em.

[Texarkana]

@Demerara_Stables

I think a big problem with clinics in particular, that result in clinicians behaving badly, is that we all (owners, riders, and clinicians) think that we can fix so much in one day/one weekend, and that’s just not true.

Bingo.

I once heard a BNT describe being a clinician as frustrating because they fix the horses, then the owners just take them home and screw them up again.

I kind of hate how popular clinics have become. Don’t get me wrong, I love clinics in theory. I love being able to learn from different people who you might not otherwise ride with. But they have become a substitution for regular training/lessons in a lot of circumstances. Not every instructor is a good clinician and not every horse and rider combo can learn in that type of environment.

[Knights_Mom]

@Long_Time_Lurker

The late Walter Zettle. A friend rode in his clinics regularly in the last few years he was traveling to teach, and I was fortunate to watch a number of times. I would have loved to ride too, but didn’t have a horse at the time who was ready to take.

My hands down favorite of all time.

He did try rough stuff earlier in his career. We spoke of it. Turns out his use of exercises were the way to go.

[Knights_Mom]

@Bogey2

I think the expectations can be misunderstood. I had a great clinic/symposium with Christoph Hess when my horse was a 4 yr old. He was 17.2 and a born curler. We had three to four horses in each session all the same age. Hess told the other riders in my group to let their horses out long and low. He told me to shorten my reins not ride my horse long and low! He then explained to the auditors that my horse was very loose and lateral and should be ridden up to the hand to strengthen his hind quarters before he was ever to be long and low.

I am adding Hess to the list of the good ones

I worked with Hess. Although his lips move and words against abuse come out, he did not truly defend the horses by calling out LDR. In person, yes he did. But on social media? Nope. We had words about that. He told me to call him. Then no response.

He walks a fine line between 2 worlds. He is not a soldier for equitable riding unless the crowd before him seeks it.

[Bogey2]

Why should he put himself out there on social media for you?? Your high horse is getting a little ridiculous. He is not an abuser.

[Lunabear1988]

I have regular trainer but over the years I’ve really enjoyed clinics and almost always come away with something. I have only ridden with clinicians that were regularly in the area so that there can be a bit of a progression over time. BUT in recent years that’s been a bust. It seems whenever I find a clinician that I click with, the organizers seem to stop bringing them in due to costs. Really bad luck for me as they brought them in for like 6 plus years before that.

There is a local GMO that seems more interested in bringing in the popular and upcoming riders with big social media followings and I’m just not interested in that.

[Knights_Mom]

@Bogey2

Why should he put himself out there on social media for you?? Your high horse is getting a little ridiculous. He is not an abuser.

He claimed he was anti abuse and then endorsed abusers, so yeah I called him out.

Whether you agree or not is of no importance. It was just a challenge to him being on the good guy list.

[Cruisesmom]

Was this recent? This is so opposite of what we experienced.

[smoofox]

@Djones

I think we’re all setting ourselves up for disappointment when we deify anyone.

In the ‘horsemanship’ circles Ray Hunt was the big deal, right? Him, Tom and Bill Dorrance, they were the ODG for those folks. I did a 3 day group clinic with Ray back in the early 2000s. It was really fun and educational. It was also sobering. There was one very, very pretty, very, very sullen, little roan barrel horse whose (relatively new to him) owner was trying to help get more freed up and forward. She didn’t care if he ran barrels anymore, she just wanted a fun and highly trained horse to piddle around on. This horse was SULLEN. Dead to people, angry, done. If you approached him on the ground while he was tied, he was mannerly, but not interested. He wouldn’t hurt you, he just tolerated you.

This horse’s solution when asked to do something he didn’t want to do was to plant his front feet and just SULK. He grew roots. He would double-barrel kick out behind if spanked, but the horse made no forward motion. At some point, Ray took us all outside the pen and we (about 20 horses and riders) were on a dirt area by the indoor. Tons of space but there were cars and trucks at the edges. There was a little mud puddle. The roan horse wouldn’t cross it. Ray flagged him from the rear/to the side(not hitting) and with good timing, got the roan across the water. Rather than be happy with that, he had her ask him again. Again, he got him across the water. Y’all, he picked and picked and picked at that horse until he got mad enough to kick himself backward into a nice horse trailer and kick the crap out of the door, almost into a Mercedes to do the same, then when the horse was back in front of the puddle again he kicked out so hard and so quickly and so fast the girl got knocked unconscious and fell off, separating her shoulder, IIRC.

And with that, we went to lunch. @alabama and I had lunch with the host and Ray and his wife, and it was like nothing had happened at all. She may remember more details, that was a long time ago. When we got back from the cafe, the horse was still there, and I think she was gone to the hospital to get checked out. I guess she left that night?

It took all of us, I think, a good long while to process what we’d just seen. I think for me it’s the ‘acceptance’ ? maybe the ‘realization?’ that when you make your money on horses, they can become an assembly line to be worked. Not that every horse is badly treated on the line, but some will be.

It’s funny, he signed a ballcap for me, one with him on a horse. He wrote “Think!” along with his signature.

Huh.

I Had a similar Ray Hunt experience - where things went wrong and yet only a couple of us were asking questions and concerned.

Ray had a palomino filly he was working on - he was chatting to the crowd outside that round pen at the same time and just sending that frantic filly round and round and round. Several times she dropped her head, turned to him and asked to come in but he drove her on while bragging abut some previous horse he had fixed.

The filly was finally acknowledged. She was exhausted but very tense. Ray tacked her up… sent her out on the rail again and then abruptly called his helper to get on her. The helper asked Ray to cut his mic - and he did. We saw a somewhat animated conversation which resulted in the helper leaving and Ray called some other guy in… and told him (mic back on) to just get on her and “hang on”. Ummmm what?

The filly took about 3 steps and launched. Ray let go of the rope he had on her. The poor rider lasted about 3 jumps and was pile driven into the ground. EMTs were called. The guy had a broken collarbone and arm and a suspected concussion. He was driven off in an ambulance… the filly had been taken back to the stalls… and oh - Lunch Break!! As if nothing had ever happened. He refused to answer our questions. IMO - and that of many others - he simply rushed that filly along and was not reading her or teaching her a damn thing - but hey, he did not have to get on her soooo…

I was so disappointed.

[ahdressage]

Wow. Just wow.
Good for that first would be rider who spoke up. He/she probably read the filly correctly and this was not their first Ray rodeo. No pun intended.

[quarab]

I had booked an Anna Buffini clinic before the CDJ controversy and was honestly mortified and almost balked at going. I’ve seen other BNTs not live up to their expectations but had really enjoyed what Anna Buffini had to say, that she seems playful with her horses, not too serious. Admittedly I’m a very beginner at dressage and brought a green bean 4yo so we probably could have worked on a bunch of stuff with someone below Anna’s “pay grade” but I’m an adult ammy who now has money to do some bucket list type things with my pony.

I LOVED riding with her. She lifted up the riders in her clinic, was kind to all the horses, etc. I think we all had a good time and felt like we walked away with something. I rode my 4yo pony who decided to be a bit spicy and we still had a good time - I was laughing, Anna was laughing. We learned some stuff and pony was better going out of the arena than coming in.

[EleganteE]

Chasing a horse with a whip is a way of helping the rider push the horse more forward. But it doesn’t work for every horse or rider and can go south quickly. Just saying. Not my fave thing to do and have no idea where CD was at in the training process.

The puddle thing with resistant horse is sad as getting the horse to do it twice is a win. And training is about consistently working through things gently and time after time. There is no over coming big resistance in one day. Just doesn’t happen. The best trainers stop when ahead and come back to work another day.

[AnnaKarena92]

Same. Many, many years ago I spent the day at his barn to see about training with him. I wouldn’t let him train a goat.

[pluvinel]

For those who rode “in the olden days…” Enjoy…

Grand Prix Movements by W. Schultheis

Grand Prix Movements by W. Schultheis

[GraceLikeRain]

To me there is an irony in glorifying the good ole days. Those clips put into a test in HD would like be paused and screenshot for many of the same reasons we see today. Yes, the movement is less extravagant but I see an active tail, a lot of bit chomping despite the graininess and drop noseband, and some movements that looks very held through the back and neck. The rider looks lovely and the horse doesn’t look miserable by any stretch but the rose colored glasses never make sense to me. Put this same trainer on a 2006 model bred to be an international FEI horse and I bet you’d see a lot of the same challenges with trying to shape raw power into a trusting soft and accepting ride.

[DLee1]

I have ridden many times with Jeremy Steinberg and love riding with him. I have never personally witnessed anything bad. I love his philosophy that I can choose how my horse goes, how light I want him to be. He likes his horses light and so do I.

Also Ellen Eckstein (California) is wonderful.

I’ll always be sad I didn’t get to ride with Walter Zettl

[Knights_Mom]

Walter was AMAZING.

[SaddleFitterVA]

I don’t see that so much tail swishing that it detracts from the ride, if I only focus on that, then yes, I’ll see some tail movement, but not like Blue Hors Matine or others we’ve seen recently. And holy shit, talk about invisible aids on those flying changes! No swinging legs.

What I notice is how far forward that saddle is, and how close contact the saddle is.

That horse would be called “above the bit” by almost every judge and upper level instructor out there. And yes, they would also be calling attention to the active mouth, but most modern riders would have cranked that mouth closed so hard, not just using a snaffle with a drop noseband.

I’m in a struggle with wanting to keep showing in dressage, but not wanting to have to be BTV if I’m to score over 60%.