The "heavy" horse and the hunter ring

[dags]

@cswoodlandfairy

a bad habit I have from previous horses that when this stuff happens or I get nervous I DO add leg to leverage my body and not realize it while I am doing it

Leg is good. Clamping is not good but leg is always good. The inverse— actively pushing your leg off the horse as seen in video, is the bad habit most of us fall into when riding an amped up horse, and it’s almost always wrong

I’ll be blunt: You have a horse that doesn’t naturally have a 12’ stride— he’s going to need to be able to accept leg without getting further “up”. And you need to be able to keep leg on him to support your body on landing, because he does not like weight coming back into the tack too quickly.

He looks like somebody told him what the numbers are and he is blindly focused on that. Not balance, not form, just getting down to that oxer in that magic number… and he’s fully aware he can’t really make it in that number, and he is anxious about that. Very anxious.

I’d be doing the add. Everywhere. Every line. Possibly forever. Trust me, the judges are far more likely to reward a consistent add than a horse running to make the lines, especially in Low Adult type classes. He is plenty cute, and I bet they’d love to give him a ribbon.

There are times, when you’re getting drug around the end of the ring, when you— the mere mortal rider— just can’t get your body back in the tack, booty in the saddle, leg wrapped around the horse, and do a correct half-halt… and that’s when skiing on the reins begins. This is the “plant hands on neck” moment, but crucial is the “bury knuckles in neck” part of that move, with rein short enough that they are literally pulling against their own neck muscle, not you pulling against them. This will usually get them to pop up off the bit for a moment, at which point everyone can take a breath and get back to working correctly again. It’s a quick cheat vs. a tug-of-war for 10 strides, but it is also not without some sophistication, so expect it to take some practice.

@EmilyM

If this was my horse I would trot every single corner. I would trot into lines and canter out. Canter in and trot out. Canter in, Circle and canter out.

All very good exercises for breaking up the Must Get Numbers Or Die agenda y’all got going on There’s really nothing “heavy” about this horse, we’ve kinda just misunderstood the assignment.

[dags]

@CBoylen

Edited to add that you were doing a much better job carrying your hands without bracing in that video from Kentucky, so I think you may have misunderstood some advice that has led you the wrong direction.

Also was typing while that video got posted and yes, that was a much better presentation in KY. Made the lines plenty easy! Though I’m not sure if they’re set on a true 12’+ at RRP?

OP, how much work is he getting before heading into the hunter ring? I would probably be doing a wee bit more prep (and before anyone jumps on me, you can prep a hunter without venturing into Tubes of Paste and LTD territory, and make your life just a tad easier in the show ring.) That said, if he’s already got tons of stamina (I suspect he might) and that just makes him fitter, then not gonna help.

[MHM]

@cswoodlandfairy

But everyone says dont do it, thats not what hunters do.

It depends on the situation. Even if you don’t plan to do the adds forever, doing them until the horse feels a little more confident about the situation might be helpful. Or even doing the adds in the warm-up class or the first class of the division each day might help. Then you could decide whether to do the regular numbers in the later classes.

When he is far away from the second jump in the line and you have to launch him at it, that will certainly not make it easier to regroup as he lands and heads into the corner.

[dags]

@cswoodlandfairy

But everyone says dont do it, thats not what hunters do.

Think of it this way:
Hunter Criteria #1: Jump quietly and pleasantly around a course of fences.
Hunter Criteria #2: Everything Else.

Nothing in Criteria #2 (strides, lead changes, form, etc) matters if horse hasn’t achieved Criteria #1.

[awaywego]

Agree with everyone about the add. That’s how I learned to “fix” a quick horse: do the add, bury in the warm-up, then let go in the ring and the step will be there. It has worked for me.

Fwiw, a “R” judge told me that the step doesn’t matter in 2’6" and under classes. That may be just her opinion, but I often think of it. I hope more judges agree because I think that really would help level the playing field at that level.

ETA: sometimes showing is the only way to get better at showing. It can be about progress, not perfection.

[fivestrideline]

@dags

I’d be doing the add. Everywhere. Every line. Possibly forever. Trust me, the judges are far more likely to reward a consistent add than a horse running to make the lines, especially in Low Adult type classes. He is plenty cute, and I bet they’d love to give him a ribbon.

This. The thing about the adds - I’ll be blunt OP, you’re not winning anything if your rounds look like the first video. Doing the adds and putting in a nice, rhythmic, relaxed round, and you just might pin! Especially in the TB hunters.

I don’t think you’ll have to do the adds forever, but right now there is nothing relaxed or huntery going on. He’s got POTENTIAL, you both do!

I hate when trainers (or riders) make it all about the numbers. The rider didn’t pin lower because they didn’t get the step, they pinned lower because the round wasn’t smooth. It looks like he’s tighter than he naturally can be at the canter - I think there’s a nice little horse in there if he can learn to lope around.

I’ve been here, OP. It’s hard to fight the instinct to BE IN CONTROL, but a lot of TBs really appreciate a softer ride! Once he learns you’re not going to get in his face, he might surprise ya

[OverandOnward]

So, OP, what I think I am reading …

You want to show.

Your horse isn’t really ready.

That’s what you have to figure out.

He’s having problems because he’s not ready for what’s being asked.

Your solution, so far, is to double down on the ask.

How’s that working?

I have no intention to be mean. Just to try to get you to think differently about this.

Just IMO, but in this situation, I would be thinking about ways to introduce what is making him so nervous, just a little at a time. Not the whole thing all at once.

Off-site schooling could be a great start, depending on what you have to work with for visiting other facilities. Especially if they do host shows, so at least have the kind of rings that he will show in.

That’s instead of reaching for gadgets and other magic wand solutions that would fix him right now – except they won’t. I think all that will do is add more layers to the issues. But I realize that you may be surrounded by people who encourage this.

Of course you are free to go the gadget bitting route, the tweaking technique here and there, while continuing to show. You can do that forever, always working on something, to overcome the same problems. A great many riders do. It keeps the trainers in business.

IMO there is a different parh, a better path to the horse and the show ring experience that you are looking forward to, than just pounding out one show ring round after the other. Anyway, something to consider.

[BostonHJ]

Very cute horse and an obviously competent rider. I would say I agree with everyone else that you’re going into the ring trying to get the best horse show round you can get in terms of getting the numbers, getting the swaps, maintaining the canter, etc - but none of that hugely matters at this point because he’s a bit anxious and hurried. You want to deprogram this, both at home and the horse show. Your video at home honestly shows the same issues, just in a lesser way - which is actually great, because you can work on improving it at home! Lots and lots of jumping and gently pulling up before the corner. Lots and lots of of then trotting the corners, and circling at the trot to regain both his balance and his brain. And once you’re back to cantering full courses at home, you’re going to pull up (gently) to the trot to circle and get things back together, whether that takes one circle or five. I emphasize gently pulling up because ripping his teeth out isn’t going to lessen his anxiety. We want him happily bored. If you’re showing at this time, stick to schooling shows and plan to have training rounds rather than horse show rounds, and ride with the exact plan you would at home - including trotting, circling, and halting at the end of a line. If you have to circle twice your round is probably over and that’s OK! That is going to get you to the point of being able to do a full round quietly much faster than your current path. I do believe your current path will get you to the point of doing the numbers/changes consistently without bolting - but I don’t think that will get you a soft horse that is going to get ribbons, or be super fun for you to ride. As someone else said, he doesn’t have the hugest step, so for now plan to the do add. I suspect once he softens and gains some strength in his hind end and back, it will be a lot easier for him to have a bit more step without running.

You two aren’t a disaster by any means. You just need some time. You mentioned you ride defensively because he will take the out. I don’t know if this is always or just at shows. If it is just at shows, can you have someone else jump him around in a schooling round first? It’s easier to trust them if you’ve seen them do it, and it’s easier for them to trust the rider if the rider very clearly conveys “we are jumping this and it’s totally no big deal.” Always make sure you are asking him questions he confidently knows how to answer for the time being. Success breeds success, so set both of you up for it! Good luck

[Janet]

Most of the things I would say have been said here, expecially it being a schooling issue.

WRT circling between fence, I saw the great amateur rider Betty Oare circle a (greenish) horse between fences in a hunter class at a recognized show, beause she was not quite happy with his pace. No shame in doing that.

WRT bits, 2 things
1 - You should school at home with the same bit you will show in so it isn’t “something different” to him
2 - The “hunter legal” bit closest mechanically to your 3-ring is the pelham. If you are worried about the curb chain, you can do it up quite loosely, so it doesn’t come into effect. Side comment- I had a horse who got REALLY strong and fast between fences on cross country (but only at competition) and switching to a pelham for cross country made an ENORMOUS difference.

[Ponyplusaninch]

I remember back when we were just bringing my OTTB into the show ring. He didn’t run (way too damn lazy for that) but he did freak out and throw his legs everywhere, because it’s really hard to know where all four legs are at once in an unfamiliar setting. We must have done the adds over 2’ speed bumps for at least 3-4 shows straight, and we repeated it as much as we could since the jumps were so low. Until it just got boring and he was able to slow himself down and know what foot went where.

I know sometimes it can stink to pay all that money for a show–even a schooling show–and not be in the ribbons at all because you did the adds, but everyone will have a more enjoyable time, and it’ll pay off long term.

On the bit front–a lot of TBs really like their pelhams, mine included. Mine especially likes his leather mouthpieces. Careful with segundas. I’ve used them with mine, they’re great, I have and do show with them. But they can also backfire real quick if you inadvertently catch them in the mouth and can make an anxious horse even more anxious, just behind the contact anxious which IMO is harder to correct.

And to add to all the other comments–that’s an awfully cute fella you’ve got!! I look forward to seeing a vid six months from now; I bet y’all are going to make loads of progress. IME TBs are a little quicker on the learning spectrum than most WBs.

[cswoodlandfairy]

@dags we have been playing with the prep before as well. We have found that if I give him a 10min lunge to just let his nerves out, which he usually does by bucking and going around like a goofball. Usually for show I just give him a synchill 2hrs before he shows. But lately due to so much energy we have had him on the PP but that is not my normal go to. I honestly prefer to not show on it period, but hes such a nervous anxious guy that the synchill has been his version of zoloft to cut the edge.

As to everyone else, thank you for all the tips! I will definitely start adding for the foreseeable future until he understands the ask. I do a lot of pole work and course pole work at home weekly more so to work on pace but also to just make it no big deal. No issue at home. When I take him off property hes usually pretty good. He get nervous, but not like you see in the show rounds. I feel like the show enviroment definitely makes it more excited. I have noticed at more low key shows hes MUCH better than the rated environment. So my plan is to definitely just stick to those when we go.

Hopefully by this time next year I will have a better video to show!! Hes a good egg. Hes just not very self confident, almost like a low esteem teenager, so its been challenging for me to bring him along compared to my jumper who is the most egotistical bold and ready to go horse Ive ever had!

[MHM]

Good luck with him!

[dags]

I think in addition to a quick lunge to get the sillies out, I’d be squeezing in a productive morning hack with lots and lots of trotting. Something that makes his brain focus but doesn’t end in him having to go in the show ring. Then back to the stall for a rest… this may have to happen at 6am.

I’d also be examining what I’m doing the week leading up to the show and make sure he’s getting enough work so that he’s not battling being fresh alongside of being anxious.

[Ponyplusaninch]

One other thing–it may seem like overkill, but are you doing any ulcerguard/gastroguard before the show and at the show? Sometimes that stress gets to their stomachs and can manifest then under saddle. Wondering if getting out ahead of that might help (we do this in our barn for the more anxiety prone horses).

Also a fan of morning hacks!!! I think it can be productive to get the green ones in the ring beforehand if possible and have them flat productively. Doesn’t have to be trot to death, but there shouldn’t be concern of scooting/spooking. Horse should be listening and reliable.

[fivestrideline]

@cswoodlandfairy

When I take him off property hes usually pretty good. He get nervous, but not like you see in the show rounds. I feel like the show enviroment definitely makes it more excited. I have noticed at more low key shows hes MUCH better than the rated environment.

How much of this could be you? You may not realize how much you may be feeding into it - I’m the same way! I definitely know the difference between a cheap local show and a “big” show. Also, for the rated stuff, is he on the grounds all week and you show the weekend? Vs local shows maybe being 3 days total? That can be huge for horses that really need their turnout and routine.

Not for nothing - I see a lot of the same issues in your “home” video. It’s less obvious, but the holes in the training that the thread has pointed out are still there. You’re more comfortable though, which really makes a difference!

Have you had your trainer ride this guy regularly? Y’all really do seem to feed into each other - this is good in some ways as it creates a bond and trust, but bad in others if you’re feeding off the stress in both directions! Maybe having a really good trainer show him (once you’ve done the flatwork and gymnastics homework) would help him, and also tell you how much of the behavior is related to yourself.

Again I’ll say, I think this is a problem you can overcome. But the answer won’t be in bigger bits without the training and time!

[findeight]

Watched the entire lesson at home video and he shows much promise but still see some tension as you jump more jumps plus the need for more balance and strength through his back end.

Agree he is a nickel short in step (as were most of mine), relaxation will add a bit to that as will shaping corners to get straight to the center of the ins and stay straight to the center of the outs continuing to ride through the landing, keep your release a stay out of the tack a few strides after landing. Don’t be in a hurry to sit up…he’s not going anywhere. You stay relaxed and confident landing and send him forward, he will stay relaxed.

See a couple of things that say he needs more strength behind. Going from trot to canter, especially to the right, he is not originating that canter behind but sort of falling into it. Then he has the mixmaster lead thing going on which usually means they are disengaged behind. That can be fixed with lots of trot poles, very low grids and trot-canter-trot transition work. The dreaded “D” word

Going to hop on that crowded band wagon of ADD, ADD, ADD along with lots of poles and correct flatwork. Linda Allens book 101 jumping exercises is still out there, most are over ground poles so you can work a couple of them into every ride. Get ahold of a copy.

Not picking on you here but when your hands come up, that stick waves around. Not helping him relax, should not be so noticeable on a video, just think about it. Maybe if you don’t trust him enough to leave the stick in the tack box, he’s not ready yet?

You need to work this out on your own and most of the advice on here should help you find your way.

[findeight]

Had another thought…your schooling fences at home are pretty plain, airy and neutral, show fences are bright white stuffed with colorful decorations and comparatively exotic standards. If you have a horse that needs to motor a bit down the lines, it could worry both horse and rider. Hence the need to add at least in the first trip

[JBCool]

@cswoodlandfairy

Hopefully by this time next year I will have a better video to show!!

I can’t wait to see it! I think he’s adorable As far as something to do at the show, what about halting in each corner in addition to doing the add step? Just a thought for some mini-time out breathers for both of you to settle and not be in a rush. Nope, you’re not going to place doing that, but that’s not the point right now.

[NaturallyHappy]

@cswoodlandfairy

@dags we have been playing with the prep before as well. We have found that if I give him a 10min lunge to just let his nerves out, which he usually does by bucking and going around like a goofball. Usually

With some horses, I’ve found handwalking all over the show grounds until said horse relaxes is more beneficial than lunging. I think relaxed is a better description than bored.

[findeight]

I liked to hand graze when available…during show hours with random people and vehicles and the PA. Relaxed me too.

And these are NOT “bad” videos, just honest portrayals of a work in progress that will help many others with the same, common issues.

You wanna see bad videos, you should see some of mine…unfortunately they seem to have been lost cough, cough.