The "NO REINSTATEMENT" thread.

[Erin]

anthem, the rules on this forum are clear, and I don’t care WHO is being talked about, it has to follow the rules.

PV pleaded guilty. The facts here are not in dispute. They’re well documented and therefore fair game for discussion. I don’t recall the thread you’re talking about (which is not surprising, if it was several years ago), but I kind of doubt the facts were as well documented in that instance.

Don’t make this about me and this forum because you’re not winning the argument on your own merit. This is certainly a legitimate issue that deserves discussion.

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

My feelings are that these horses were not killed because they didn’t live up to their potential. These horses were killed because these “superman” trainers were not good enough to bring out, or maintain the talent the horses were already showing. I guess they just couldn’t face the fact that other trainers out there may have been able to do a LOT better job than them.

[Snowbird]

Oigh! I have not had enough experience with these sorts. xebeba you’re right. It could have played either way.

With vets like that who needs crooks. I think the horse deserves to be on the list.

[Erin]

Originally posted by C.Boylen:

So you all agree with me then that much of this speculation is in direct violation of the rules of this bulletin board?

No, it’s not, as long as it’s sticking to documented facts.

I don’t think the fact that PV is continuing to train is at all a point of contention (especially considering that his students are posting here). Discussing whether or not that is in vioaltion of USEF rules is a legitimate topic of discussion.

And radio talk, cut out the personal attacks. This thread has been refreshingly civil the last couple of days, and I’d like it to stay that way.

[Chanel05]

Problems with the horse…

Screw in the leg where it had been fractured,(8 inch scar I should have noticed but didn’t), bench knee, 12 large melanomas on the sheath, kidney problems–couldn’t keep on weight even though he had been there 8 months. Vet said he might last at 3’6, but I really need a low a/o horse with potential to move up. He was a VERY nice horse, but I felt cheated…I was never really allowed to be alone with the horse to look him over properly. When you try horses at their place, you just stand in the arena while the groom brings up the horse with your saddle on.

[caffeinated]

Originally posted by Saddlebag:
:what I see here amounts to a veiled attempt to influence the Hearing Committee, and deny PV his due process.

Hardly.

Nobody’s denying him his “due process” or trying to. That would mean denying him the hearing altogether and preventing him from trying to get reinstated. Nobody’s doing that.

At least, as far as I’ve seen. Are they trying to get their voices heard so that the people who matter know how the public feels? Yes.

But that doesn’t deny anyone their rights or prevent PV from being heard.

If people wanted to deny the man his rights, they’d be petitioning the USEF to not hold a hearing at all, which isn’t the intent of all this as far as I can tell.

If protestors gather on the steps of a courthouse waving signs indicating their point of view, talking to the media, and being very vocal, they’re not denying anybody their right to due process- they’re making themselves heard. Which, I thought, is what’s going on here.

[Showponymom_Aefvue_M]

Originally posted by War Admiral:
Hey guys - I have an idea.

Instead of flaming away at each other - now that we have a couple of acknowledged USEF committee members on the thread - why don’t we ask each of them for their interpretation of GR 702 et seq?

Great idea! Since MWE keeps asking me to justify things, may I ask you to interpet GR 702?

[ponybreeder]

Bingo, JN1193 “Credibility” I always laugh when I read posts from people who have not one shred of ID on their profile, and go on with their proclamations of dinners and relationships with BNTs, who they refuse to name.
Mt name is Robin Greenwood, I live in North Salem, NY, I sit on two USHJA & USEF comittees. (I am the chairman of the Breeding committee).I showed in the A/Os for 10 years, including a HOTY High Score Award in 1976 (Oh, yeah, I’m 54). I was a working professional for 20 years. I grew up with PV, met him when I was 14. Oh, and I’ve been out to dinner (and more with quite a few BNTs! Heck, at the pony ring, I WAS a BNT! The PV supporters on this tthread have convinced me that reinstatement is not a good idea.

[ponybreeder]

I will give you this, though, Sheila. Spelling is not required.

[Boberry]

and is found not in good standing and he and all horses owned, leased, or of any partnership, corporation or stable of his are found not in good standing and are suspended from competing or taking any part whatsoever in Recognized competitions and he is excluded from all competition grounds during Recognized competitions

doesn’t “any partnership” include this horse…PV isn’t even being technically legal and thus looses his re-instatement

[Sebastian]

Originally posted by mwe:
my letter has already been sent

So has mine.

Seb

[anthem35]

Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>AWF is owned by someone other than PV, but somehow PV gets paid to train and make decisions in care for horses there. There are also other trainers on AWF payroll who are the ones who sign off on entries of clients of PV and the other trainers?

Originally posted by anthem35:
Whats clear is that Paul can do whatever he chooses to do…He is free to train anyone he chooses to on his private property.

So who’s property is it anyway? anthem35 seems to be saying it is his. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no idea whose it is, and I have no time to care whose it is.

I can ride whomever I choose.

If it is my choice to ride with a suspended trainer, then that is MY choice.

I managed a pretty big show schedule this past year, and at no point was breaking any rules,or told I was ineligible to compete due to any training activities conducted off showgrounds.

[Linus]

Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
I also want to point out to his supporters, that his friendly, attitude is the only way he can be if he wants to maintain a business. What is he going to say, “yeah, I killed them, so what.”???

This is a person that was able to play a part to the insurance company, and others to make them think he was shocked and horrified at the loss of a horse - to collect the money. A wonderful actor. A smart actor, that is still playing a part to salvage firendships, clients, business, and ego. Playing a part so that he can get the hero worship he craves. (thanking him because he is such a wonderful trainer, etc.)

Do you know him?

[Erin]

WA, the wording of the hearing committe might just be left slightly vague for legal reasons or something. I’ll look back and see if I can figure out what the deal was.

Here is an excerpt from a press release from the then-AHSA, June 22, 1998, announcing the hearing committee’s notice of penalty:

In deciding upon an appropriate penalty for the violations by Dr. Hugi, the panel members weighed in his favor that he had cooperated with the government; however, the panel also took into account that Dr. Hugi had admitted witnessing a trainer kill a horse, Jatomic Streaker, by flipping the horse out of a trailer and then finish the murder with a sledgehammer, and Dr. Hugi admitted that he thereafter falsified the cause of death of the horse to an insurance company.

[War_Admiral]

UPDATE: THE PETITION IS NOW ONLINE!!

Here is the link:

http://new.petitiononline.com/valliere/petition.html

If you can find it in your heart to sign the petition, that will be great.

If you are in a position to pass this link along to friends/acquaintances in other USEF breed/discipline affiliations, other equestrian-related organizations (AQHA, APHA, foreign organizations) and ask for their support, that’s awesome too.

While the priority is probably to demonstrate support from within the USEF membership, it’s also going to be very nice if we can demonstrate that the international equestrian community is watching.

I’m still working on the microsite but in all honesty it probably will NOT go live today. I’ve simply got other stuff I’ve got to get through. But please, please, do pass the petition link along to anyone you can think of who can help.

[N_B_T]

There is a reporter who would like to talk to Palm Beach County residents, seasonal or year-round, about the website and the petition.

PT me for how to contact the reporter.

[Showponymom_Aefvue_M]

I do not believe their is any proof of certain people discussed here “making it a habit”. One horse, one insance does not constitute “habit”

There was more than one and Erin does have the facts to prove it. There was over 20 people charged and many dead horses that we know of. That is a habit, especially with The Sandman.

[Limerick]

To add to TWF’s post about lifetime bans in other sports-Ben Johnson, the Canadian sprinter, was banned for life for testing twice for illegal substances (steroids).

I think this reinstatement petition needs to let the USEF know that a ten year ban is not sufficient for such horrific crimes.

I’m sure that if you’re around horses as a business for many years, you see a lot of awful stuff go on-drugging and poling and too much longing. I still can’t imagine ever becoming complacent regarding someone electrocuting or smashing the legs of a wonderful athlete that just needed to have a different job.

Belgium Waffle, Emili’s Choice, Rainman, Roseau Platiere, Streetwise, Empire, Pet of the Year and Cloud Castle, Charisma and Rub the Lamp-may their horrible deaths not be in vain…

[Erin]

Janet, you’re probably the most rules-maveny person on the thread. Any educated guesses as to what the rule might have been intended to apply to?

[hiddenlake]

Originally posted by harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens:
Duffy, my mother and yours may have been twins! Mine said “Rude, crude, and socially unacceptable”

Which may be why Harry resorts to Latin to tell us to always wear underwear. Mom taught you well!

As to the rapists, murderers, et al, we’ve been through this before. Yes, they are allowed back in general society, and so are the horse killers. Your point is lost if you’re trying to make a comparison.

Those of us who are against reinstatement are simply referring to denying PV’s and other’s memberships in an organization that purports to protect the welfare of the very animal they admitted to killing.