The "NO REINSTATEMENT" thread.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division:
I have an eleven year old and I don’t think he would be very forgiving if I told him the story. He is quite intellegent and very sensitive. He knows right from wrong and most of all what a mistake is vs a non mistake. I really can’t believe a ten year old child would be that forgiving and want to be around someone that had an animal killed. Was it fully explained how the horse was killed? Or was it explained in a not so graphic way?[/QUOTE}

It was explained by his Mother quite candidly.

As I said, kids are a lot more astute than we give them credit for.

She took the time, gave him the story…he took it like a man. He gets the right from wrong, and misses his Idol at the ring.

Same kid got to meet McLain I hear…So much they have in common.

Well, since evidently most people think that red bracelets mean that one supports the heart association, then that’s what people think they’re for. Unless one is aware of the non reinstatement issue, they wouldn’t have a clue that you’re not wearing it for the heart association. I support the heart association, so I don’t have a problem wearing a bracelet which might infer to someone else that I do support the heart association.

If I see red bracelets on people now, I might try to take a closer look. (I haven’t seen the heart association ones, so I don’t know how different they look from the non-reinstatement ones.)

If the KKK was able to market their supposed red bracelets to the masses and was able to convey to the public that if one wore a red bracelet that they were supporting the KKK, then I would have a problem wearing one. However, somehow I just don’t see that happening.

As far as people wearing red bracelets supporting the heart association who are pro reinstatement, I guess that would be a predicament for said people. Course, I sure haven’t met anyone who was ANTI heart association. So, maybe people don’t feel they need to wear the bracelets to announce their support? Everyone already knows what the heart association is.

I wish to make more people aware of what “non reinstatement” means.

Originally posted by BaliBandido:
I’m all for putting your money where your mouth is, but I have also learned sometimes a sock is better.

BB, what a great line, may I adopt this as a signature?

I would like to encourage everyone who is concerned about the motives and repercussions of this petition to actually go to the no reinstatement petition and read the text, which, incidentally, explains why only PV is mentioned.

Signing means you support the petition. Period. It does not mean you support every opinion of every poster on this or any other bulletin board discussion.

Signing the petition does not mean you are prohibited from supporting OR INITIATING efforts to reduce or eliminate the various injustices that many have raised as being more contemporary or more worthy in some way.

In other words, instead of trying to redirect this effort to the problem of your choice, go after it yourself–post a topic and a petition and you may be surprised at the support you will get.

You do not have to be a member of the USEF to sign. The petition will be forwarded to the USOC. Since the USEF also selects the equestrian Olympic team, which represents our country, everyone has a stake in this issue.

Similarly–since the petition will be sent to the FEI, numerous people from other countries have signed.

It’s worth taking a look at the Australian equestrian NGB code of conduct.

Gee, HL, you said that better then I could.

Indeed that should be published as an editorial in COTH. With your byline of course.

then petition for a Rule Change—they did not give any of these people a “lifetime ban”.

Would you support such a petition?

Just thought I would throw this in…

I have a copy of the petition language hanging up at the barn along with the Palm Beach article and handouts with the petition address, No Rein gear, and bracelet info hanging up. One of the newer pony dads was standing int he office and wandered up to read it and I watched his jaw drop as he read on. He had no clue.

Not everyone knows about it.

As I told Liz on the phone, I was a walking No Rein billboard the other day with my hat and shirt on and the button on my purse and sticker on my car. I walked through Fleet Farm and my local tack store and noticed a few people reading the sticker on my car and reading my hat. I took pics of Rosina wearing a No Rein bracelet as well-will have to get it developed this week.

So word is getting out!

Anthem, this is not meant to be inflamatory. When this went down we all waited. No one could believe he was involved. Kept thinking not Paul, he wouldn’t do this, never. Believed what we were being told was wrong, media hype kinda thing. But the facts, proved us all wrong. Which was devasting. He never formally made any type of apology to his friends or peers. That may have been the hardest thing for all of us.

This thread is pretty intense. As it should be. The subject is controversial, and is a perfect illustration that deeds once done can’t be undone, and will follow the doer throughout life, and beyond.

That in itself is a pretty intense statement, and is one reason I’m ambivalent about reinstatement.

Reinstating these individuals within the parameters of the rules of the NGB isn’t an effort by anyone to negate what they have done in the past. That will ALWAYS hang over them, and those who associate with them. They have been judged according to the rules; the suspensions they received are drawing to an end. So in this sense, I can’t see a reason that those who have sat out their time shouldn’t be readmitted, not with a clean slate, but on a probationary basis.

However, it can be argued, and should be, IMO, that certain of these individuals have adhered to the letter, but not the spirit of the parameters of their suspensions. Insofar as this is an indication of a lack of respect for the NGB’s rules, a failure to accept the gravity of their situation, and has not resulted in as severe a level of punishment as was intended by the original period of suspension, I would support an extension of the suspensions in these cases, even by several more years.

<<The credibilty of the NGB will be seriously damaged both domestically and internationally if the reinstatement is allowed. If the mainstream media got a hold of the story, should it happen, you can kiss any future horse show coverage by any major network goodbye.>>

Statements like this bother me, alot. Neither “coverage by major networks” nor our NGB’s credibility is hanging in the balance here. If as much effort as planned by those on this thread were directed toward petitioning the networks FOR COVERAGE, instead of aiming at a few individuals whose fate should PROPERLY rest with the committees within the NGB whose job it is to deal with them, we might actually get coverage.

Then again, I’m not sure a cyber mob of overexited ladies bent on exacting their own brand of vengence would fit any particular sponsor’s demographic.

To clarify, I am on the fence here. The question that is facing the NGB on these people is NOT about whether what they did is right or wrong-it was very wrong, as wrong as it can get. And I don’t agree with those who continued to do business AT THE HORSE SHOWS, or on the immediate periphery of the horse show grounds with these folks.

But our rules don’t allow for the NON-consideration of these people for reinstatement–they must be allowed to ask for consideration. If the rules don’t allow for an extension of their suspensions, then they must be readmitted. I’m betting that it won’t be so black and white in some cases, and that a probationary status will be devised, as it should be.

But however well-intentioned, the mob mentality gathering steam here should not influence the process one way or another, and should not be the basis upon which the hearing committee makes their decisions.

It isn’t going to make any difference economically to any of them - I think that’s already been demonstrated…

To me, it’s just the principle of the thing: lawyers who commit malpractice are no longer permitted to practice law; doctors who commit malpractice are no longer permitted to practice medicine. There’s a lot of reliance in this industry on the term “professional”. If you want to CALL yourself a professional, then you need to be held to professional standards. That means ACCOUNTABILITY. All of these people did what they did of their own free will; they are accountable for their own actions.

To me, ALL the horse killers committed malpractice by killing animals they were being (in most instances) PAID to train and care for.

And yes, further on down the road, I hope this does start a trickle-down effect. It’s no secret that I think suspensions and penalties for abuse should be increased; I’ve always maintained that.

I’m hopelessly idealistic but I would really like to see USEF be a clean organization, insofar as it is able to be. I think that they do try, but I’m not sure they try hard enough.

Anything we members can think of to do in order to encourage them on the long road to development of sound policy is something that’s going to get a LOT of my time/attention.

I would sign a petition voicing my opposition to reinstatement for “the list.”

I think we owe it to those poor murdered (there, I said it) horses to try and keep these people banned. Forever.

I feel we can’t sit here in silence – the USEF must know how strongly we feel. If we don’t tell them, how will they know?

What if PV does get reinstated and we all smack our foreheads and say, “Gosh, I should have put up a major stink!”?

-Flip

Oh y’all, this is great!! Snowbird, thank you so very much for coordinating the financial end. I agree about red for the wristbands.

Avery and I will have the petition available to sign at his art opening and we’ll take donations as well, and send them along.

I’ll try to get the web site up and running over the holiday weekend, and Snowbird, I’ll link it back to your site if that’s OK.

Thanks so very much everybody for all your support!!

JrJumper, I didn’t say I believe, I was saying whether right or wrong she has a lot of information and to be respectful of her opinions as she is with yours.

Originally posted by scout33:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by War Admiral:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by scout33:
Question- if the issue is reinstatement why is PV being singled out?

He’s not, and I apologize if that impression is being created.

The only way we can approach this situation is to take the same approach USEF has taken - that being, to deal with each suspended party on an individual basis. Each of the nine people listed here in the Hearing Committee minutes received a different length of suspension. Thus, each person becomes eligible to apply for reinstatement at a different time.

USEF really had no choice in the way they handled this; we don’t either. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the reason why there was no uproar when Nancy Manfield applied for reinstatement? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn’t know about it.

Plus, just because one shark gets through the net doesn’t mean you don’t try to keep the rest out.

Seb

In all fairness, I don’t think he kills horses without the kind owners getting advance warning.

They are always around, Showponymom.

You’re welcome - I was happy to do it! Sorry I didn’t hit the “confirmation” button til just a bit ago. But, that made you the even #800, so I guess it worked out fine!

Originally posted by TWOLEFTFEET:
I’[m not twisting anybodies words. I’m just interpreting.

this whole thing makes me want to stay as far away as possible from all the elite “horsemen” that are out there showing, riding, training.
I prefer to not jeopardize the safety of my horses. Even if its just a perceived risk.
i’ld rather not take it.
and I have a feeling there are a lot of other little people out there, just like myself, who find this whole issue to be a bit nauseating.
Are there NO heroes for us to look up to?
Your “interpreting” looks like twisting to me, but I digress.

First of all, you are in canada and as I understand it, you don’t show…so a man completely on the other side of an adjoining country in shows you don’t participate in is really no threat to you. Secondly, lots of things are more jeopardizing to the safety of horses than one man who had a horse of his own killed (not one of his client’s, renn…he owned Roseau Platiere) - let’s say bad fencing for one. I find that a lot more dangerous!

And again I repeat, the “little people” cliche is becoming very cliche, but perhaps that is just me who feels that way…

Also something that bothers me is that if killing a horse were murder, then where would one draw the line? No one would be able to put down a horse anymore because that would be murder too. And it definitely isn’t murder currently to kill your own horse…it’s just illegal to try and profit off of that. How do you define “horse murder”? I’m not saying it’s right or wrong to kill a horse one way over killing it another way, but just that it’s something that needs to be quantified. And when does it approach PETA-esque proportions? Horses aren’t people and we don’t want to have laws for them that emulate those we have for people.

Just some rhetorical questions on my part…

Originally posted by Lori B:
Also don’t understand why folks are suddenly so deferential to the organization, saying we should let them make decisions for us poor dopes. If this were some fine point of rules about points or classes or fences or whatever, fine, yes, leave it to the professionals. But this is not such a case.

Most are suddenly so deferential because they want some excuse, and that is as good as any …

ahm, big dawg, I find time for worthwile causes, and this is one of those cases. What makes you think that anyone here will try to even bother make sense of your twisted logic. Didn’t see THAT one comming. Killing horses to collect on their insurance policies is aaahhh, well,
i-l-l-e-g-a-l.

Sorry, Xebra and I know more about this game than all the rest of you put together.

sheila, i prefer ZebrabraDDD.