The "NO REINSTATEMENT" thread.

[War_Admiral]

Please, let’s not get into criticizing individual people for what is, after all, a PERSONAL decision whether or not to sign the petition.

I have a lot more sympathy for (and gratitude to) people like Silver Bells and Harryjohnson than you might suspect. I, too, used to be a “keep your head down and your mouth shut b/c you may have to do business with these people some day” person…

What really swung the balance for me was buying Avery. After I started to realize what INSANE stuff had been done to this grand old horse I just decided - you know, the horses can’t speak for themselves. So we have to do it for them.

But being brutally honest about it with myself and all y’all - it took me to the age of 45 to work that one out.

So for those who are slowly thinking it through, I’m grateful and I thank you.

[Snowbird]

[B]We all know there’s been a huge internet move afoot to keep Paul Valliere’s ban in place. However, Marcella has been told that he’s back on the WEF showgrounds…it will be very interesting to see how this all shakes out.

There is a link where USEF members can sign a petition NOT to reinstate Paul: www.PetitionOnline.com/valliere/ . It is hosted on the web by PetitionOnline.com, the free online petition service (however you should be aware they send you a confirmation which asks for support).
[/B]

This is the direct quote from Sidelines pertinent to this discussion.

[Sherry]

Originally posted by Snowbird:
That is absolutely true and we are required to look at the updated Suspension List. We are also required to post in the prize list the terms of entry as not accepting entries.

There are qualifying shows where entries are limited by points acquired and most of the rest of us select “First Come” as our preference.

A horse has to have an ID number if the horse is not registered. However, so far the system is flawed because as a show manager I have no way of knowing what is true or not on such an application for an ID.

I have for years been proactive on the issue to the effect that person who is suspended and lies and attends should be the one responsible. I dislike the idea of being listed in violation of a rule when I have no way to verify the information.

It would be easily possible for the horse of a suspended owner to be issued a new ID with a different owner and even a different name. I have no way of knowing to a certanty that this is so.

That’s why it is so strange that Mason Phelps would publish the information as to which are Paul Valiere’s horses when there is no record of them at all. So PV could be tecnically legal by getting a new ID but with falsified information or even go to the trouble of transferring ownership for the run of a show for $2.00 and then accepting the horse back at the end of the show by returning the $2.00. I think Mason Phelps was using PV as the owner because he knows it’s true and he could give his friend some good PR.

That is technically legal but morally corrupt.

So if PV didn’t do the transfer then WEF could be in violation? Why does the USEF make it so difficult to figure out the darn rules

[Duffy]

Same with me, Seven.

[Hopeful_Hunter]

Originally posted by anthem35:
Last of all, I do have one question…

Have any of you actually spoken WITH Paul, and given him at least an opportunity to apologize?

Anthem, I appreciate your rational input into this discussion, although I don’t agree with your position. I wanted to address this though…

I, certainly have not spoken to Mr. Valliere. I don’t even know how to do so. I have been asked by members of the media how to contact him, since they tell me his phone is unlisted and they also don’t have contact information for them (although Nancy Jaffer did succeed in getting him to speak with her - and I’m not sure he served himself well doing so, from a PR standpoint…but I’m not Mason Phelps, I practice PR quite differently, and I digress…)

So, as one of “the little people” I don’t know how to contact him…and I don’t particularly want to. See, this ISN’T about whether or not Mr. Valliere is remorseful (which, given the tone of his comments, doesn’t come through to the average reader…) nor even about whether or not he has fulfilled the letter - or the spirit - of his suspension.

For me, this is about what is and is not acceptable practices that the governing body of my sport will allow. And I do not believe that the governing body should ever permit the destruction of the horses that are the only reason this sport exists - for fraudulent, illegal purposes - to be condoned. Period.

So, for me, there isn’t any way in which Mr. Valliere can “apologize” that would make me say “oh, heck, he’s not that bad, it’s a long time, let him in.” Because, as I’ve been quoted as saying, some things MAY be forgivable, but that doesn’t mean they should be forgotten.

Mr. Valliere made a very, very, very poor choice. He made it freely, and he has admitted making it, and he must live with the consequences. People make bad choices all the time, and they live with the consequences every day. It’s not easy, but that’s the way it goes.

Whether or not Mr. Valliere is a skilled trainer isn’t the issue…I have never and will never believe that the ends justify the means. The journey - whether it be to win a class or through one’s life - really IS what it’s about.

Mr. Valliere’s journey is one I cannot respect. You can – that’s not something I’m able to get my brain around, but that’s your choice, not mine. I do give people second chances, but not if what they’ve done is something I consider to be non-negotiable. And, should I ever screw up to that extent, I’d expect to be treated the same. There are standards for me which one cannot violate without incurring dire penalties.

Some things in life just are not acceptable. This is one of them for me, and for many other people. You feel differently. I can’t understand that, I don’t “agree” with it, but I can accept it. But because I DO think some things are just non-negotiable in terms of acceptance, an apology - to me, at least - isn’t necessary. One to the horses who died, and to the industry, though, might have been nice…but it would need to be in a different tone, I think than what has been seen so far.

(edited to attempt to clarify…)

[Midge]

Mistake: PV is giving an IV injection and accidently hits the carotid. Horse dies.

Greivous error in judgement: Lying about the cause of above horse’s death.

Unforgivable act: This horse is such a piece of crap!!! I cannot believe I made a mistake in buying this horse and let’s not make anybody lose their ‘investment’, even though I know better than anyone the ‘investment horse’ is an oxymoron. So, I’ll give my good buddy Barney Ward a call, who can give his good buddy Tommy Burns a call and when we go to the horse show next week the horse can get offed. We will then rip off all of my fellow horsemen who insure horses so that I don’t lose anything, the poor schmuck I sold him to doesn’t lose anything (wasn’t that poor schmuck his brother??) and I don’t have to admit that I cannot train this piece of crap.

[harryjohnson_Aefvue]

I disagree that an ad in the Chronicle would sway people. If anything his advertisements touting his “good works” have been galling. I do agree with Boston Chicken, wherein if he had said something even slightly remorseful in his interview, it would have been an opportune time to win over at least the people who were ambivalent towards the issue. With that said, I do not feel his objective is to win over the public. His only concern is the USEF committee charged with reinstatement and keeping his customers loyal.

[N_B_T]

How disappointing to see the other thread locked.

[VarsityHero4]

Originally posted by TWF:
Okay young ones (Sara and Varsity)Take the advise given …read the thread…I know you will not be persuaded to any other opinion…but may find the topic has been exhausted…

In April 2003 the USEF applied to the US Olympic Committee and pledged to align their rules to conform to the USOC…Everyone in the USEF is now an affiliate of the USOC. The rules AS they are…the rules apply to everyone equally.

Sorry I don’t anyone is listening to yeah…but…

believe it or not i DID read the entire thread before i began posting. but you obviously haven’t read what i wrote. the rules of his suspension cannot be changed by the new rules of the usef because that would be ex post facto, and therefore not allowed.

[Hopeful_Hunter]

Originally posted by Boston Chicken:
Sticking a second toe in . Wouldn’t PV have been already cited for any subsequent violations by now had he been out of line? I’m not certain, but would suspect these types of possible infractions would have already been looked at?

BC, I think that IS a very, very good question. I don’t know the answer, though.

Is it possible that there are no “official” complaints on file? Would asking USEF to check this out also cost someone, as protests at shows do? Maybe we need to have some USEF members request a review?

The only thing I can think of is that, since PV IS suspended and not a member currently, the USEF does not have any jurisdiction under which to investigate, nor any recourse should actionable proof be found. I guess they’d have to actually look at his associates - barn associates, trainers, riders, horses maybe - and THOSE people, if they were USEF members, could be subject to penalties.

Anyone with a better sense of how this works want to comment?

EDITED TO ADD - I DO have to agree, though, that the reaction to his potential reinstatement has most likely caught “the establishment” by surprise. I don’t think there was much consideration that anyone cared, and the fact that we DO care, and can even get the media to notice that we do, is probably quite unexpected. Whether or not it will be effective, we don’t know. I do think that there are now over 3000 people who will be carefully considering where they spend the time and money and offer their support, and this could have the potential to be a very significant event for the USEF.

[Racetb_Aefvue_Farm_B]

Sorry…I meant to say cut his head off with a rusty machete…but discretion IS the better part of valor.

[Sherry]

For those of you claiming that PV doesn’t own any horses that are showing during his suspension, this comes DIRECTLY from a Mason Phelps Agency Press Release…

"Winter Equestrian Festival Week 7 Wrap-Up, March 9-13, 2005 CN Finale, CSIO-US 4*, ‘AA’

Contact:
Mason Phelps, Jr. of Phelps Media Group, Inc. at (561) 753-3389 or at

The R.W. “Ronnie” Mutch Scholarship winner, Cathy Rolfs, placed eighth in Section A of the ASPCA Maclay and had scores of 80 in both the hunter and jumper phases of the WIHS Equitation Classic. Zazou Hoffman, the R.W. “Ronnie” Mutch Working Student winner, placed ninth in the ASPCA Maclay and also received a score of 80 in the hunter phase of the WIHS Equitation Classic. Both girls were graciously loaned wonderful horses to compete on. Rolfs rode Aristocrat, who is owned by Paul Valliere, while Hoffman rode Missy Clark’s Long Island. "

Now I have a question for Snowbird (as a show manager, I used to know all of the rules but it has been a while since I managed a show)…Isn’t a recognized show subject to some sort of fine/reprimand/penalty if it allows a horse owned by a suspended person to show regardless if the horse is “recorded”??

[Sheila_H]

Melding of two creatures my @ss. Owners do it for bragging rights. Kids do it so they don’t dissapoint their parents. Amateurs do it to get away from their husbands for a few days.

[adventurebeachponies]

OK…

I will let the cat out of the bag so to speak. I am a licensed bail agent that does a lot of private investigative work in my trade.

If the issue is that PV is violating the terms of his original sentence then bust him. If he is blatently doing this then it would be cake to get video evidence to bury his efforts to get reinstated.

Just takes money to hire a PI. You want names in South Florida? PM me.

See. I don’t have a dog in this fight.

[Nadonyalife]

Cross-referencing to the “PV and NOT Gensis” thread, as well as the “Trainer Stole Money” thread–

Great series of threads on moral/ethical issues facing the USEF!!!

[anthem35]

Originally posted by meadow lark:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by Snowbird:
Yes! it really is! We have two reports published by Phelps Media saying that Equitation Riders in the Maclay were showing horses owned by PV.

We have friends of PV who stable with him saying he has a proxy on his payroll. We have all of you that are his students and show giving PV credit and we have ads in the Chronicle giving him credit and Thank you! for his teaching.

Tsk! Tsk!

PV doesn’t own any horses–those were horses owned by others and held for sale…the kids took lessons from PV/and there is no rule stating that you cannot take lessons from a suspended person.

PV does not own Acres Wild Farm, and he has no payroll.

TSK/TSK yourself </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Finally, someone well-informed.

Thank You.

[JuniorJumper01]

Originally posted by Sherry3313 Groom of Winners Aefvue Farms:
Second of all, you don’t personally know most of the people who post on this thread so you don’t know that ANY of us has screwed up in ANY way. I certainaly don’t appreciate YOU making this statement about ME as a poster on this BB, even in a general way. Can you spell S L A N D E R ??

If you’ve never messed up, I must have just met Jesus Himself. I can spell b l a s p h e m y…Don’t act holier than thou, it makes you look ridiculous.

[anthem35]

Originally posted by Erin:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by anthem35:

KAP-but they DO.

If theyprove to a parole board that they have satisfied the requirements for re-entry to society, they are granted so.

No, Erin, thank god its not
But, it IS based on behavior and action.

Every case is individual, and requires individual scrutiny.

[War_Admiral]

Originally posted by DMK:
jetsmom, given the near rabid nature of internet BBs, I can’t think that would be at all productive for anyone.

But I do think IF Mr. Valliere chose to apply for reinstatement, it would be an exceptionally good idea for the USEF to have publicly held hearings, where interested parties could speak, or have letters formally read for the record, and Mr. Valliere would have an opportunity to respond, for the record.

Could not agree more. In fact, I wish I had thought to include that in the petition!! And I think that procedure should be in place for ALL the convicted horse-killers, NOT just Mr. Valliere.

As to what the procedure is NOW, I have no idea how long it would actually take. Any of them wanting to be reinstated would have to reapply AFTER the date on which they are eligible - they do so in writing to the Hearing Committee, and I assume the Hearing Committee then sets up a time to meet and discuss. A lot of these folks are volunteers, and from what I understand, it can be pretty interesting trying to get a quorum together, so it could take a while… Of course, the way things are now, the first we will hear about it is when we read it in Equestrian.

[mxyplyzyx_Aefvue_Far]

To the tune of “Take Me Out to the Ball Game,” with apologies to baseball everywhere:

Kill the horse, it’s just mail fraud
If he can’t win, file a claim.
Wear me a wire and stab all their backs
Come on USEF, cut me some slack

Oh it’s cash on the seat for the sandman
Can’t wait to pass all the blame
Oh it’s jump, win or the horse is dead
at the mail fraud game.