Thank you, TB or not TB.
ise@ssl & TWF ~ you just have to remember the AGE of the person you are TRYING to communicate with.
You’d have better luck nailing jello to a tree!!
Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>under the rules that went in to effect in Dec. '05
Are these new rules we have been reading? Which ones are new as of Dec 05? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There is a lot of confusion about this. The rules (GR704 specifically) are not brand new. What got changed effective Dec 1 2005 (and the reason they appear as rules changes), was replacing “Federation Competitions” with “Federation Licensed Competitions”.
Originally posted by TWF:
From The COTH November2000 (link: Judge’s Ruling ) note the link is not working.
BARNEY WARD BANNED PERMANENTLY, JUDGE RULES
On Nov. 1, a New York State Supreme Court justice ruled in favor of the American Horse Shows Association in its two-year effort to keep former show jumper Barney Ward off horse show grounds. Justice Richard F. Braun granted the AHSA a permanent injunction to keep Ward off show grounds for as long as he is suspended.
Ward, along with others convicted in the insurance-fraud indictments announced in July 1994, was suspended by the AHSA Hear-ing Committee for a minimum 15 years in July 1998. After serving 33 months in federal prison, he appeared on the grounds of shows in Vermont and Florida, violating his suspension. Justice Leland G. LeGrasse ruled twice in favor of the AHSA in granting a temporary injunction against Ward, pending further action.
Justice Braun’s decision permanently bars Ward from attending AHSA-recognized competitions as a participant or spectator. He noted that Ward had pleaded guilty in March 1996 to the insurance-fraud charges, admitting he arranged for Tommy Burns to electrocute George Lindemann’s hunter Charisma and three other horses before he threatened to kill Burns if he told anyone. Justice Braun called these “most reprehensible actions.”
Justice Braun wrote that the AHSA “has the right to keep unsavory people away from the horse shows that it oversees, even if only to prevent the appearance of impropriety.”
Justice Braun rejected Ward’s request that he be allowed to watch his son, McLain Ward, compete, saying Barney “should have considered the consequences of his actions before he put himself in the position in which he is now.”
He added that the AHSA “issued an appropriate penalty that, contrary to [Ward’s] contention, was not disproportionate to penalties issued against others” and that the AHSA is “certainly justified in avoiding actual or potential harm to its events, members and reputation, not to mention the horses, by having [Ward] barred from those events.”
QUOTE]
Note that Ward plead guilty to fraud…
SO there is a ruling that stands behind the (USEF) ASHA to keep “unsavory people” (not just those convicted of felonies) away from the horse shows…
I have asked if this was made into a formal USEF rule… Did the expensive Federal Court case…which the AHSA won…produce a rule we can quote from the rule book?
At any rate, the Federal Court ruled the USEF is certainly justified in their right to bar persons form their shows.
You need to be a lawyer–you are attempting to give legal advice without a license–maybe we should yank your USEF membership for breaking the law.
You are taking this court case and citation out of context…Ward showed up at the shows, on the show grounds and legally challenged the ASHA’s right to keep him off the grounds during the period of his suspension…the court merely upheld the AHSA’s right to ban him as a suspended person from licensed [newly added word in '06] competitons. That was what the case was about–you should have been around then and maybe you would have a better contextual view of this whole thing.
Janet! Are you alluding to the fact that my lovely Xmass gift, BASEBALL JESUS, could be a NANCY BOY!!! I’ll have you know he also performs body checks in Hockey, has a mean left hook in Boxing…and performs all these feats in a robe and sandals!!!
Attached…He man baseball Jesus 
I think it’s a great idea if they don’t want a bracelet they might want the CD. Who knows some genius could spin off a whole TV Saga tied to the New Jersy Sopranos.
Yes, War Admiral, I agree that we need to keep the personal stuff out of this to a certain extent, i.e. the insults. Where the personal stuff needs to be kept in, is for those of us who oppose reinstatement to make ourselves and our names known. It is abundantly clear that those who support PV and the other felons will never do so and that weakens their case significantly. Frankly, it is a relief to me to know that they will never show their faces at any reinstatement hearing, while I’ve already put aside funds for airfare.
But War Admiral is also correct that this is something that needs long-term focus and strategy. Letters not only to USEF, but to The Chronicle and every other horse publication we subscribe to. Op-eds in major market newspapers and even local newspapers. In my area, Middleburg Life, The Middleburg Eccentric, and a couple of Loudon papers. Keep outrage going and sure as heck make it as embarassing as possible for USEF if they even think about reinstating anyone else.
Those of you in the NYC area: do you know any producers for any of the news shows like 60 Minutes, 20/20 or Dateline? It would be worth pitching a story to them.
Absolutely, Bali. We have a nice hunter/jumper barn…but with home heating prices and the economy what they are, even the local dog warden is calling me to help “place” 15 year old morgan pleasure horses and such! What DO you tell these poor people? They have families, and have to fill the oil tank all winter. I say…take them to a decent auction and PRAY!
The thought that anyone could even think about letting these murderers be reinstated makes me sick. Trainers have to try to do the right thing, we have enough of a bad name already. It is time that we try to make this business a good one. Too many trainers are not honest, and yet the horse show world is very competitive and it is not easy making it as an honest trainer, I am in favor of doing anything to try to slowly make the horse business a reputable one. I will absolutely sign the petition.
Oh, for God’s sake…When it’s a little friendly info being traded by people involved in the subject at hand, I don’t think veering off the topic for a minute is a big deal. Beats the sniping off topic crap that seems to go on for chapters at times.
Under no circumstances may you allege that any specific individual or organization has done anything illegal, unethical or abusive, unless what you’re saying has been documented as fact in court or in print somewhere (bulletin boards don’t count!) and you can back your statements up.
Just to be clear, does “illegal” apply to the rules of our governing body or solely to criminal acts prosecuted by the legal system?
I believe “unethical” certainly applies to infractions of the rules of our governing body.
You’re accusing Paul of violating the rules of GR70, of which he has not been in violation, and your accusation most definitely has not been documented as fact.
Unfortunately, this issue has become what any other emotionally charged issue has turned into here. The extreme sides are, well, too extreme. Passion is a good thing - when it’s not hateful. I don’t hate PV. I hate what he did.
I have a very dear friend who has a somewhat different opinion on this issue. We talk about it passionately. But, we listen and respect each other’s opinions.
I signed the petition because I do not wish any horse killers to be allowed back into our USEF, a body which is supposed to be about the horses’ welfare.
If PV does apply for reinstatement and it is granted, I won’t stop showing. That is my choice as well.
I would never dream of putting my horse in his care, even though I truly don’t think he would ever do such a thing again. There are a few BNT’s who haven’t been convicted of this crime that I wouldn’t dream of putting my horse with either. 
Originally posted by Showponymom:
I agree and to say all hunters are on drugs is wrong. I for one do not drug my horses or ponies when showing. I have not replied to any of your retoric (sp) on this or any of the other treads. We can disagree with people but there is no need to attack.
so you do admit giving them drugs when not showing, or do i misunderstand your statement? i know quite a few big time hunter trainers and those horses are like crack addicts…personally i think the drug rules are too loose and need to be drastically tightened–this is pure animal abuse in its strictest sense. this is not meant as an attack against you or any other responsible show person, but it is pervasive in the industry and you should at least be able to admit that without feeling any personal threat.
Originally posted by mwe:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by RacetbAefvue FarmBiziz Ltd.:
[dudes,don’t even THINK any of you have had the quality horses and wins PB has had]
Relevent to this thread? how?
Accurate? maybe/maybe not…
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>It is indeed relevant as a direct response to YOUR claim
Many people posting have never been to a horse show, nor know what goes on at the upper levels of horse sports (racing, as well as showing)
I’m very surprised that after having 3 or 4 days access to the petition on-line, there are slightly less than 500 signatures.
There seems to be alot of posters on this discussion. Can we all try (again) to get this thread into wider circulation?
IMO, it would be better to spend effort trying to get the issue in front of more people than to respond to off-topic postings. Also, maybe if we absolutely ignore postings by trolls, they will not get the satisfaction of bugging us.
I find it of interest that most of PV’s supporters on this thread are competely incognito.
I agree! This is kind of like reading a Harry Potter book - you know, with the followers of Lord Valliere, I mean, Lord Voldemort masked & hooded. 
Show yourselves!
mwe: No Paul didn’t throw the switch himself. You are correct. He hired someone to do the killing for him. He committed insurance fraud, and basically “murder for hire.” Except his victim was a horse, not a person. The violation of trust is that he caused the death of the horse who was in his care, custody and control. HE, Paul Valliere, nobody else, caused the death of Rousseau Platiere.
And, you still haven’t answered the question. How many horses does someone have to kill before you won’t do business with them?
how about:
"Tie a ____ ribbon around the ____?
What color has not been used - purple?
Tie them around trees, stabling tent ropes, car mirrors, etc.
You know, I was trying to stay out of this.
But imagine that this horse was your horse. Maybe he wasn’t ever going to be what you and your trainer had hoped he would be- maybe he never would have succeeded over the bigger fences. But this was a good horse, and a horse that you love. You arrive at the show one day to find that he’s dead, and you’re heartbroken. Your horse, the one that you love, your baby, is dead. Maybe you watch him being dragged away- or maybe you couldn’t bear to watch. But then you find out that your trainer, whom you admire, killed him.
What would you do?
You know what I think about every time I hear about the possibility of reinstating Paul Valliere? I think of the sight of my own horse lying dead in a gully and of the effort it took to cuddle his head in my lap. I think of the way he was lying. I think of his eye, glassy and unmoving. And I think of his paroxysms of death, as the blood from his heart flooded his body and his lungs, and then the way that time stopped when I saw him lying still. I will never, ever forget that sight. I don’t think that any horse owner who has seen their horse die will forget the way their horse looked, dead. A few months before John died, he had finally convinced us all that he wasn’t happy as a hunter and equitation horse. Instead of forcing him to do something he hated, we switched careers and he went foxhunting instead. What would have happened to John if Paul Valliere had been his trainer? My dear horse, who was fabulous in the hunt field and an amazing teacher, would have been killed because he didn’t fit the trainer’s ideal. Let me tell you what I would have done if I found out that my trainer had had my horse killed because he was unsuccessful at his job. I would have bided my time and planned. And I would have killed my horse’s murderer in such a way that he saw my face before he died.
I say murderer because that is what Paul Valliere had done to this horse. First-degree murder in cold blood. Nobody’s denying that. But look at the difference in punishments between his murder of a horse and the way he would have been punished had he murdered a human. Instead of life inprisonment or even the death penalty, Paul Valliere has continued life as usual, with some adjustments- maybe he’s not physically on the show grounds anymore, but he’s still training and he’s still making a living off of the horses. And now we’re going to accept him back into society, all smiles, and shake his hand and say “So glad to have you back, I know you’ve changed”? While we’re at it, let’s open up the doors to the prisons and free the convicted murderers. Okay, maybe not the serial killers; after all, Valliere just had one horse killed. But the guys who’ve knocked off one person? Eh, they’ve done their time, I’m sure they’re sorry.
You know what? Maybe he has changed. I don’t know the guy. I’m not saying it’s impossible. But it’s too late now. Paul Valliere made his decisions years ago and he’s going to have to deal with the consequences.
I wouldn’t know Paul Valliere if I met him on the street. But I do not support his reinstatement. It’s not about him. It’s about the people who cried for that horse, and the horses that he might have killed if he hadn’t been caught. But mostly, I do not support reinstatement because of the horse that he killed. The horseman’s charter posted in the front of the USEF rulebook says it all. This sport is about the horse and the horse’s welfare. We are in this sport, not out of money, but out of love for the horse. And that’s what it comes down to.
Alright, harry makes a good point. The bracelets are COMPLETELY FREE. They were only a dollar each to have made, so I feel no need to charge people for them and they will only cost me a couple of stamps to send. Consider it my gift to the No Reinstatement cause. And I’d love to spell out No Reinstatement in crystals on my helmet if I didn’t think that it would give my trainer a heart attack.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Midge:
Scout, dear, the reason this whole thing came up at all is because Anthem, one of PV’s customers, came onto this board and praised his horsemanship to the skies.
The ensuing debate sprang from that one post. If she hadn’t said anything, there would not be three threads about PV on the first page.
So if anthem hadn’t praised PV would there be no uproar, no threads about him and no petition to revoke his application for reinstatement, that seems a bit odd considering how adamant many are that this is about stopping those who committed a crime in the past.
PS-Midge I would appreciate it if you didn’t patronize me when responding to something I have written.
