The "NO REINSTATEMENT" thread.

Originally posted by harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens:
Anthem, there were thousands of people who helped out after the hurricanes. Many left their jobs, homes, families for extended periods of time. They were not encouraged to do so, they just felt compelled to go. That is human nature. I don’t feel that one person should be singled out and commended for their efforts, it wis just something you do. Many people who for whatever reason could not go there to help, sent money, food, clothing. I do not think that the things I have done in the name of charity or compassion makes me a better person, or atones for any wrongs, it is just something that needs to get done. No one encourages me, I do it on my own.

But when you’re considering the question of whether Paul Valliere has made a contribution to the horse community or deserves forgiveness, of course his participation in charity will be singled out.

He really can’t win at this point (which is perhaps deserved, given his crime). If he toots his own horn about good deeds, he’s criticized for being fake. If he doesn’t, nobody knows, and he’s criticized for not doing anything.

He has to do some good if he’s to be reinstated – shows he’s been “rehabilitated.” But if he didn’t do these things before being suspended, he’s obviously just making a game of it. Etc.

I’m against reinstatement, but there’s definitely a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don’t thing going on here.

Folks, I am getting VERY tired of having to babysit this thread. If it becomes too much of a pain in the ass, with too many people sniping back and forth at each other, it’s simply not going to be worth my time anymore and I’ll close it.

This is a legitimate issue and I think it’s worth having open discussion about it, but if people are just going to continually derail the thread with nasty, catty comments, it’s simply not going to be allowed to continue.

Most of you are well-spoken, rational adults. Please act like well-spoken, rational adults if you want to be able to continue to discuss this issue.

I don’t think so - there’s not really much point their getting it until roundabout the time the first person is eligible to apply for reinstatement. Otherwise it’ll be all too easily forgotten… It’s not like they’re not aware this is happening, and I’d rather use the time to get more sigs… If that’s agreeable w/ y’all??

And why would that be Equibrit? People discussing bother you?

Hmmm! not according to the required current Membership form where it counts.

And, yes! their non-profit status is definitely at risk. Having just incorporated as a sport club 501©(3) in New Jersey there are big differences between classifications to the IRS. Do you have any idea what the penalties could be if they are found in violation?

An Educational Charity has a lot of trouble running horse shows. That’s what the whole issue of Conflict of Interest is about. The Board can decide to overlook a conflict of interest for David O’Connor but that doesn’t make it legal…It just makes them guilty too.

I was a kid showing at Madison Square Garden the day Silas was released from prison…I remember the whole horse show being abuzz with the news, “Silas is out!”.

Originally posted by Yours Truly:
anthem, please clarify your question:

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”> In what way would you offer an apology considering your audience?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
How would you, In his position, make a public apology that would reach everyone?
A letter to the Chron?
A public forum?
Its just not possible to personally reach every horseperson.
Please, I ask in sincerity…as someone who has been offended, what would it take to offer an apology?

I dont know PV personally-- and I am glad I don’t.

In my book and with my values-- he should never be allowed to profit from horses. period.

Just like I would never hire a CPA who helped cook the books.

Ethics is just like physical fitness. One must practice it every single day of the week in order to make proper decisions when faced with much larger consequences.

To go past using some less than attractive method of training to killing horses and defrauding insurance companies (and the people that pay insurance premiums) means to me that PV lacked basic ethics and concious early on.

I used to love the hunters-- but now I think of it has being nothing more than big business.

I realize that people on here who support PV, appreciate his training, etc-- have something to gain from the business. I am not saying that these people would do something equally has heinous and unethical— but the fact that they can lend support to reinstating someone who used the grey area to continue to profit from the horse industry-- speaks volumes about where their priorities lie.

Maybe that is a harsh judgement-- but to me how anyone can justify his actions (and lets say this-- there is no honor in wiring a wire and selling the rest of your accomplices down the river just to save your own proverbial a** jail time or more) lacks a barometer of basic ethics.

Originally posted by big dawg:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by Windsor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by big dawg:
I cannot believe you folks have this much free time on your hands to be doing someone’s else’s job…must be a lot of lefties living off your dad’s trust funds…

This tickles me.

If you think these people have big trust funds, how big must yours be, since it allows you time not only to follow what they’re doing, but to comment on it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just do this for scientific study–I am amazed by the number of crazies there are in this world. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apparently you are one of them. You have managed to find the time to not only read the posts but add your posts not once but six times. Perhaps you are living off daddy’s trust fund.

BTW you are just a little dawg.

For some of you posting, who feel these people should be allowed to go on with their lives, possibly reading the transcripts, detailing the exact acts to the letter, may make you rethink your stand. Hearing bone crack on a horses leg, watching it run thru a parking lot, falling down, hearing it’s screams of pain. Yes, that makes perfect sense to allow those people back. I hope for all of you, you never hear that sound. Or have a horse break a leg in a freak accident. It will never leave you, never.

Originally posted by Seal Harbor Aefvue Farms PNW:
I see, you talk circles around them that make no sense and they do whatever you want.

Hmm probably pretty effective.

How many of the pages on this thread are devoted to me? Am I the greatest person in the history of horse jumping or something?

Originally posted by ss3777:
Personally, I would like to thank Dawg for consistently keeping this thread on page one. Reading his replies is like slowing down for a look at a car wreck. You feel uncomfortable looking but you just can not help yourself

MADE YOU LOOK/KEEPING YOU OFF THE STREETS AND OUT OF TROUBLE.

Thanks

Slainte is gaelic for “cheers”, FYI!

Originally posted by Limerick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by big dawg:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by Limerick:
To add to TWF’s post about lifetime bans in other sports-Ben Johnson, the Canadian sprinter, was banned for life for testing twice for illegal substances (steroids).

I think this reinstatement petition needs to let the USEF know that a ten year ban is not sufficient for such horrific crimes.

I’m sure that if you’re around horses as a business for many years, you see a lot of awful stuff go on-drugging and poling and too much longing. I still can’t imagine ever becoming complacent regarding someone electrocuting or smashing the legs of a wonderful athlete that just needed to have a different job.

Belgium Waffle, Emili’s Choice, Rainman, Roseau Platiere, Streetwise, Empire, Pet of the Year and Cloud Castle, Charisma and Rub the Lamp-may their horrible deaths not be in vain…

And Eric Lamaze has been caught three times for cocaine, and he is still in the sport–once he was either going into or coming out of Australia, I think, to/from a competition. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, sure bring Eric’s problems into this Big Dawg, you aren’t just someone who happened to wander on here to research a project-you’re a bonafide “in the know” horse person aren’t ya?!

Eric wasn’t caught with cocaine three times. I do believe it was cocaine once and then a banned over the counter med the next time. (Canadians correct me if I’ve got the wrong sequence of events) He did not get to represent Canada at the last Olympics even though he had, in many people’s opinion, the better horse than Ian Millar did. It was down to the discretion of the Canadian committee and they chose squeaky clean Captain Canada. But doing coke is nowhere near as horrific as sentencing a horse to an awful death because it’s not performing up to your standards. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I am a “horse person”. My point was rules violations are rules violations, and hearing committees are there for the riders as well as the protection of the sport [however that is being interpreted at the time].
And Captain Canada is not “squeaky clean”. He is a great rider, a gentleman, and a good represantative for Canada, but has had an issue or two whick is known. Eric is also a great rider, has had drug problems, which is known, and has attempted to come back several times from his problems. I guess you see certain acts as totally unforgivable and not worthy of redemption, while you give a pass on others. But, I see all as equal and the Sport Rules as determinative of who gets to play, as long as they are applied equally and fairly…that is now going to happen because the USEF has to answer to the USOC and the IOC–no more ‘good old boys club’ [AHSA].

http://www.usahsa.org/Bracelets-No-Reinstatement.htm

I have tried to stay away from this thread, because it seems to me that what the “No Reinstatement” faction really is about is to discredit the “A” Circuit competitors and unilaterally assuming that anyone who competes on the "A: level of showing condones killing horses for insurance money.

You couldn’t be more wrong saddlebag. We are against those who who committed offenses against your community of A Circuit people and yet you seem to tolerate PV’s lack of remorse by stretching the rules to accomodate his needs as more important than our value as a “sport”. These are convicted self confessed felons who admit they killed horses to pacify the ego of either the trainer or the client without regard for what was good for the horse.

Do you seriously believe that convicted felons should be a welcome part of our horse community? Whether it is a convicted sexual offender; or a confessed murderer of a client like Helen Brach; or theives who steal horses from rightful owners without fair compensation these are felons and they have no plavce in the world of sports.

So now, you are seeking to piggy-back your cause onto the upcoming Animal Planet series on the Maclay Finals by implying that the kids who are the stars of this series, and who have expended the work and dedication that goes into preparing for this national championship, are the budding young horse killers of the future. I’m sorry, but I find this type of “Yellow Journalism” extremely distasteful and yes, harmful to the sport.

No we are saying that these children deserve a better horse world for all their efforts. They deserve the opportunity to accept the Olympic challenge based on how good they are and not ho they know. They deserve to find a place in this horse world where they can win fairly with rules equally enforced. Saddlebag are you not embarrassed that the Court has ruled that these felons can be eliminated from our sport and should be for their transgressions.

Are you not ashamed that we have existing rules that say that PV violated the spirit of his parole? Are you not incensed that in your favorite environment you rub elbows with the man who publicly admitted he killed Helen Brach, with the people who admitted they killed horses for the insurance money and they fraudulently killed healthy horses? With other trainers who may have cheated you of prizes by having drugged horses? By knowing that rightful owners have been penalized with financial loss from conmen who are as I write Members in good standing of the Federation?

I know of no-one who supports the actions of Messrs Lindeman, Ward, Valliere, et al that occured ten years ago. I certainly am apalled by what they did to those horses. But, I am also outraged when I read the vicious verbiage that this mob visits upon anyone who says, "Hey, I have faith that the USEF Hearing Committee will listen to the reinstatement arguments fairly and dispassionately, and will come to a just decision as to when or whether the miscreants may be reinstated as members of our Federation.

Why would anyone have faith in a Hearing Committee that is accountable to no one? A self contained revolving circle which has the final decision and does not feel impelled to make sure that all the rules are equally enforced on all levels of competition. There is no accountability and no responsibility as the punishment is dealt out to be a less painful as possible on those VIP and as strict as possible on the “nobodies”.

And,by the way, the whole notion of the petition flies in the face of a fair judicial procedure. Juries in criminal trials are often sequestered so that they can’t be tainted by public emotions and swayed by lynch mob histrionics. Your actions, despite what you say, amounts to an attempt at “jury tampering”, and last time I heard, that is against the law!

It is not because because we don’t expect a fair hearing on this issue. No one is attempting jury tampering we are preparing a case to present to higher authority.

As someone mentioned earlier, “Get Over It!” And, by the way, the letter that was sent to Animal Planet stated ( as fact) that the USEF was “one by one reinstating” those who had been found guilty of insurance fraud". That just isn’t true…the USEF is beginning to conduct hearings on reinstatement…which is not the same thing as granting reinstatement. Please…when you set out to ruin a sport that others have worked very hard to develop…at least, get your facts straight!

Are you sayng that you don’t know of the current re-instatement of two already that were convicted and are felons. Do you agree with us that PV should not be re-instated? I submitted a request to the CEO that Joe Plemmons after his public confession that he shot Helen Brach in the head twice should be suspended and have a Hearing. I never received the courtesy of an answer.

Originally posted by Sheila H:
Most estimates say somewhere btwn 2 and 5.

why don’t you cite the study or whatever for this estimate? do you just make this stuff up as you go?

Maybe he doesn’t need to hire a PR staff since his clients are doing it for him.

I didn’t know that Nancy had applied for reinstatement either. However, I’d never heard of her, other than the fact that she was one of the horse killers. Paul Valliere is a much more visible entity, in part because of the Eq judging issue earlier.

actually, I agree with Jane, why not let this be a positive exhibition of this sport. People have to care about something before wanting to take a stand. The more americans that respect the sport and understand it, the more you can count on to unite for your effort. However, if we bring all this negativity along with the premiere of this show, people aren’t even going to want to understand the sport, and they definitly won’t understand your campaign. Look at the works of PETA… They work hard to bring awareness to major animal abuse situations, however, now they have such a reputation of being overly negative that people just shrug them off as “radicals”. The sport needs to gain the respect of this new audience first. Besides, lets put on our best face for them, show off the sport we love so much!!!