One is not necessarily entitled to forgiveness; one must earn it. And one is not automatically entitled to respect and compliments from their peers; one must earn that as well.
None of the supporters have been able to tell us what PV has done to earn our forgivenes other than donate his lesson money and help with the hurricane horses. IMO that is not enough, not considering the crime that was committed. I personnally would like to see time and energy donated. But that’s just me.
Hopeful Hunter, I think it would depend on who owned/controlled the “legal entity”.
704.4 says that the “new trainer” may not " Be paid a salary directly or indirectly by or on behalf of the suspended person."
If the suspended person owns or controls the “legal entity”, and the “legal eneitiy” pays the new trainer, I think that would constitute being paid a salary "indirectly.
705.5 syas that the new trainer must “Bill customers directly on his/her own bill forms for any services rendered at or in
connection with any Federation Licensed Competitions”
and then 704.4 says thatthe new trainer must not “Make any payments of any kind, or give any remuneration or other compensation or
consideration, to the suspended person, … any corporation,
partnership or other entity owned or controlled by said suspended person or to any
other person for transfer to any of said individuals or entities for the right to ride, exhibit,
coach or train for the suspended person or any of the suspended person’s customers
during Federation Licensed Competitions;”
So I don’t think the new trainer would be permitted to transfer any of the training income to the “legal entity owned or controlled by the suspended person”.
But it is definitely gray.
Especially if all their money goes into their horses! So the horse has to go and go NOW.
So… based on this logic… let us now suppose that PV was a pisspoor money-manager and really, really needed the cash. What the hell… I’ve paid the ins. Co. gazillions of dollars over the years…I deserve this payout.
What information do we need to send to get a petition? Email or snail-mail?
Thanks to everyone for your efforts.
Snowy - I received my bracelets. The remainder will be sent to my eventer sister.
who let the DAWGs out? Geez, I have a number under 100!
War Admiral, I have tried everything and can not sign the petition. I get error HYTTP or some such thing. I would also love a bracelet. Could I send you the info and ask you to sign for me?
You’re right harry, exactly!
War Admital if we get this done I will personally invite you to be on the Leadership Council of usAHSA and write the rule change proposal for you.
Posted Feb. 07, 2006 02:13 AM
I sure hope that any horses you own never fail to live up to your expectations. Apparently you think what they did is OK
Radio…Sallie and Em are turning in their graves…but I might have to go for the hot pink vest points 
…alright…here goes fatmouth; I hate to say it…but ya all just KNOW who is gonna seriously maim whom if the wire wearer gets reinstated 
…mark my words.
Originally posted by harryjohnson Aefvue Senior Gardens:
What peeves ME is the fact that some people think that those of us against reinstatement have never met Paul or know what he does when the media isn’t all over him. What also peeves me is that there are a number of people on here defending PV’s right to be reinstated, yet you don’t hear those very same people going to bat for Barney Ward, George Lindeman, or Marion Hulick. If you want one of them back, they should ALL be back.
Why so defensive? Nowhere did I direct my statements at you. I said those who haven’t met Paul shouldn’t be pointing fingers at him. And again, this isn’t about PAUL, it’s about general reinstatement for similar crimes. So no, people aren’t mentioning the names of the other offenders. That seems to be a point you’re missing.
??
Somebody accidentely whacked a horse? Or somebody accidentely claimed a tax deduction?
I have a question here… please recognize that this is a QUESTION, I am not trying to get stoned to death here. When these men were indicted, they were tried, and found guilty and given a sentence to punish them. They have served that sentence. Evidently there is a huge following of people who are unhappy with the sentence, but it seems to me, the time for petitioning and campaigning this point was at the sentencing!! When someone serves a jail sentence and is released to society, we don’t take them back to jail and put them back in because we dont personally believe they deserve to return to society! It would undermine the entire justice system! A sentence is basically a contract between society and a criminal that says that we feel they need to serve “X” amount of time for what they have done. People don’t have to personally forgive them, but when a sentence is up, it’s up. So where was this protest when the indicted were sentenced?? And if over 1600 people are willing to sign a petition, and we have people buying shirts and such, wouldn’t it be more beneficial for the industry to focus the protest on the act itself and prevention of it, instead of people who have already been found guilty and been sentenced, and served their time??? Just looking for opinions here, not to be burned at the stake!!!
Originally posted by Seal Harbor Aefvue Farms PNW:
What do you do when you don’t follow the protocol - beat them up behind the barn?
I’m pretty much doing what I do when I dont follow the protocol when I’m doing what I’m doing right now.
Originally posted by anthem35:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by Snowbird:
I was there for the discussions and I believe they were allowed to participate to show their remorse; they would totally comply with no paticipation in horse shows. They needed to contribute in a way that showed their sincere remorse. At that time Jane Clark was President and intended for them to prove they had reformed that they were an example of exemplary behavior and good sportsmanship and that one mistake would never be repeated.
It was a well intentioned purpose to leave the door open in the conviction that it was a “moment of temprary insanity”. However, it was not intended that they tread the line and bend the rules to appear compliant. That started later and seemed to be accepted behavior so they felt encouraged.
If that is your definition of ‘the purpose’, can you at least acknowledge the fact that PV did spend weeks and weeks in Louisiana after the hurricane to help rescue horses and other pets?
Can you at least recognize what, in your own words was ‘an attempt to contribute in a way to show remorse’? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There is nothing to fear the vast majority of youngsters turn out just fine and it is simply the way of the world. There are some who refuse to mature and I think those are easy to recognize.
Would someone please post the link to the Providence Journal. I hear I have been quoted and I like to know what I’ve said when it’s in print.
Snowbird, there’s a link to the actual publication on the links page at the No Reinstatement web site . But you have to register to access the ProJo site, so Hopeful kindly placed a copy of the text at the top of this thread.
I would just like to point out that Sarabeck IS correct on one legal point: every real estate owner has the right of “quiet enjoyment” of his property. Therefore, a USEF suspended party can do whatever he or she likes on his or her own property. He or she can in fact board, train, coach, whatever. That’s not really at issue in my mind…
HOWEVER: I’m with Snowbird in that I feel that there are many USEF rules being violated in this instance. It is, of course, an issue for the Hearing Committee to decide, if and when an application for reinstatement is made by ANY of the so-called “horse killers”. But there is, in my opinion, a definite issue as to rule interpretation, and possibly some inequity as to how USEF is choosing to apply its rules, and as to whom.
Originally posted by TWOLEFTFEET:
This whole issue just makes me shake my head in disbelief.
So, a man who is known as a horse killer will get to be a member in good standing.
a person who is on the horse welfare committee feels that a horse killer should have the right be become a member in good standing.
This leaves the horses where, exactly?
Is there ANYONE in the upper echelons, at all concerned with the welfare of horses?
makes me not want to show ever again. 
She never said that. She said he has the right to apply. Way to not read for clarity 
Saddlebag, I have been thinking about your post for several days. It seems that you are greatly upset by what you think is an attempt to besmirch an entire group of people, young and old, many of whom are simply trying to enjoy horse sports and are not generally involved with the details of governance.
If that were so, it’s certainly worth getting upset about; I would be upset too. It made me wonder exactly why you are getting that impression.
Perhaps there are too many tangential issues being brought into the two threads dealing with the no-reinstatement petition?
For whatever reason, you have that impression; I would like to respond to your comments but I can only really speak for myself, and hope you will accept these remarks as they are meant, which is in the spirit of a respectful and civil exchange of ideas and opinions.
Originally posted by Saddlebag:
I have tried to stay away from this thread, because it seems to me that what the “No Reinstatement” faction really is about is to discredit the “A” Circuit competitors
No, that’s certainly not why I signed the petition. I think that people involved with the horse-killings should not be re-instated, for reasons explained earlier in the thread. That’s it.
and unilaterally assuming that anyone who competes on the "A: level of showing condones killing horses for insurance money.
No, I don’t think that at all.
Mason Phelps is quoted in an earlier newspaper article as saying something like “knowledgeable professionals” are ready to accept Paul Vallier back into the shows but that “the little people” are not willing to forgive him. That remark annoyed a lot of people; and somehow the idea must be leaking into the posts here. At least, that’s MHO.
So now, you are seeking to piggy-back your cause onto the upcoming Animal Planet series on the Maclay Finals by implying that the kids who are the stars of this series, and who have expended the work and dedication that goes into preparing for this national championship, are the budding young horse killers of the future. I’m sorry, but I find this type of “Yellow Journalism” extremely distasteful and yes, harmful to the sport.
No-one is implying anything like that. If that were the case, it would be wrong and harmful and I wouldn’t like it either.
While I can’t speak for War Admiral, I suspect she was simply trying to send her letter while horses were at the forefront of the media mind. The TV show was almost certainly already taped. This would have been a completely different program, and as I’ve said, could have been presented very positively.
I know of no-one who supports the actions of Messrs Lindeman, Ward, Valliere, et al that occured ten years ago. I certainly am apalled by what they did to those horses. But, I am also outraged when I read the vicious verbiage that this mob visits upon anyone who says, "Hey, I have faith that the USEF Hearing Committee will listen to the reinstatement arguments fairly and dispassionately, and will come to a just decision as to when or whether the miscreants may be reinstated as members of our Federation.
If you are referring to a particular poster, I remember that remark. I also remember the numerous sarcastic and rude comments he/she made as well.
Nobody likes to be categorized. There are many thoughtful and well-balanced posts on these threads and you do a disservice to those people who are willing to share their thoughts with us and take the time to write them carefully and clearly.
IMHO, there are way too many obnoxious posts on this very controversial topic by people on both sides of the fence.
And,by the way, the whole notion of the petition flies in the face of a fair judicial procedure. Juries in criminal trials are often sequestered so that they can’t be tainted by public emotions and swayed by lynch mob histrionics.
See above. This is not a trial and there is no lynch mob here–although, to be quite frank, I have had the same reaction as you to other threads on this board.
As has been posted earlier, it is a free country and people are allowed to express their opinions. Many facts have been posted as well… If the facts are distateful, it is not the fault of the messenger.
Your actions, despite what you say, amounts to an attempt at “jury tampering”, and last time I heard, that is against the law!
See above. Petitions are not illegal.
As someone mentioned earlier, “Get Over It!” And, by the way, the letter that was sent to Animal Planet stated ( as fact) that the USEF was “one by one reinstating” those who had been found guilty of insurance fraud". That just isn’t true…the USEF is beginning to conduct hearings on reinstatement…which is not the same thing as granting reinstatement. Please…when you set out to ruin a sport that others have worked very hard to develop…at least, get your facts straight!
I don’t think anyone is trying to ruin the sport with this petition.
The USEF has reinstated at least one of the people suspended in the horse-killing incident.
Saddlebag, I wonder if you have actually read the petition itself, at a time when you are not upset about the above peripheral things. It might actually reassure you.
I think the illegality arguement is the flimsiest of all. If insurance fraud were legal, you’d have no problem with it? What if PV were pardoned?
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