Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Yes, Harry, you’re right…it was a calculated act…of stupidity.
Nope - it was of greed
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes! Fairview! GREED.
Not sickness, or depravity.
So you can see how the relation to child molesters is irrelevant! Finally!!!
Originally posted by Snowbird:
C.Boylen you don’t know that at all. It could be that people felt so sorry for those kids they just didn;t want to punish them. Surely, if Mason Phelps knew they were the horses of Paul Valiere so did a lot of other people and if not at the time after the fact. Phelps Media did after all publish the information.
Don’t you find that if these are all errors there is something very wrong with the record keeping. The show office can’t be that inefficient.
You seriously need to chill out. All these suppositions in this thread are so far out in left field, that no one will EVER take some of you people seriously. You lack concrete proof (someone once told me that someone saw him walk across the showgrounds is NOT proof) of anything, especially any rule violations.
God, why do I even bother?
I also have never heard or read a public apology from any of them. Again none of the supporters will or can tell me what PV has done to earn my forgiveness or anyone’s forgiveness. Other than donating money…heck anyone can do that, not much effort in it.
Aww, WA, you’re going to make me dig to the back of my closet and pull out my Big Fat File o’ Insurance Fraud stuff again, aren’t ya? 
I’m almost sure I have some news clippings on the Hugi/Heinsohn cases. In the meantime, try searching the Chicago Tribune archives. They had reporters at all the insurance fraud court appearances.
SELF-RIGHTEOUS ACTS WREAK OF NEGATIVE ENERGY
Er… Would that be ‘Reek’ per chance?
I would like to hear how he justifies such a heinous act? As someone who struggles to support my poor string of lowly horses that no one wanted and the care for them until it’s their time and not when it’s convenient for me. I came close to bankruptcy and never considered killing my horses. I could have insured them and arranged for accidents, heck we have a lot of ice to slip on in the winter, I wouldn’t need a “sandman”.
I would like him to tell me why it’s different for him. Why is it different for expensive horses and rich clients than it is for me? Why wouldn’t he have given the kids in my barn a horse like the one killed for free? Tell me why I should respect him and want him back judging the Maclay? or managing horse shows?
Originally posted by TWF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by BAC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by jetsmom:
This is kind of off topic a little, but one of the things that I found so horrific, is that when the authorities were “on” to what was going on, they heard about a horse that was “scheduled” to be killed. They sent people to stake out the barn and videotape what went on. The video showed a horse having his legs being broken with a crowbar and turned loose so it would look like an accident. THe authorities did not intervene, because they needed to actually catch them filing an insurance claim in order to get them for more than a misdemeanor. After the “perps” left, a vet came out and put the horse down which was truly suffering and going into shock. This video was one of the most horrible things I have ever seen, and I think of it everytime the name of one of those involved is mentioned. I find it somehow equally troubling that what they did to that horse was allowed to happen because in the eyes of the law, torturing an animal is somehow a lesser crime than ripping off an insurance company. That seems so wrong to me.
Did anyone else see the video to which I am referring?
I didn’t see the tape but I believe this was Streetwise (f/k/a Innisfree).
I’ll sign the petition too, I don’t believe in forgiveness when it comes to cruelty to animals. Everyone involved in these murders should have received lifetime bans in addition to their jail sentences. Its very disappointing to hear that many of the “big names” in our sport continue to befriend PV and do business with him. Whether a petition will do any good or not we owe it to these horses to try.
I admire you buryinghill2, especially since PV was such a good friend, too bad there are not more people in this business with the courage to turn their backs on these murderers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I remember Innisfree (circa 1985) as a yearling since I showed my first warmblood crosses in that era. He was correct and a legend as a young horse. I was horrified to find he was the same horse Streetwise that was murdered! If you ever saw him…you’d never forget him…he was a brilliant chestnut with four knee high white stockings…which make the quote from jetsmom so horrifying. NO reinstatement!!! Stand up for the defenseless horses that are the heart and soul of our sport for the majority of us.
This runs concurrent to another thread about felons who are petitioning the Federal Court to “allow” them to go back to the horses industry after pleading GUILTY to crimes which landed them a jail sentence of 15-18 months and which they plead guilty to pay restitution of over $52,000 instead of facing the court and only three of their victims…there appear to be many more…and as I say…you are not just a little guilty when you plead guilty to Federal charges!!
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/7076024331/m/270206967/p/1
Premeditated actions are not simple mistakes! Negligence is NOT a mistake!! This industry needs to be vigilant to protect the membership and especially the horses!! We do not owe them a living…and certainly NOT on the blood of our horses!
War Admiral…thanks for the link
Please sign the “NO REINSTATEMENT” petition:
http://www.petitiononline.com/valliere/petition.html
Joan Watt
http://tellwynd.com/ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
So why aren’t you working on reforming the Rules instead of trying to go against the rules?
Originally posted by Uberraschung:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by FuzzyLogic:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by horse_poor:
So just because it does not say they area USEF member does not mean they are not.[QUOTE]
So the USEF committee have to be psychics? or just assume everyone who signed is a member? 
[QUOTE]I have said it before and will say it again”"I will be highly pissed if any of them get reinstated and I paid money to be lumped into an organization along side them.
Should I be pissed that I paid money to be lumped into the same organization as you and a few others? 
Geez, why don’t you guys start another petition and ask the USEF to split memberships into two catagories and keep all the crazies in one? I’ll sign that one! 
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>Now THAT was humor! We should start a petition! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Let’s do it. Make sure we have the thongs in several sizes as well.
Why, in light of the recent progress made in those areas, is it necessary to drag 10-year-old dirty laundry out into the public view?
Do you honestly think that people with little knowledge of the sport want to see people on the inside bringing controversy forward? It doesn’t create the impression that the community is concerned with its image. It creates the impression that the community is inherently controversial.
On the contrary it is very necessary to bring this dirty laundry to the forefront. The perputrators of these horrendous crimes are starting to be eligibale for reinstatement. People need to be aware of the issue. What do you want? For all of us little people to do? Just forget about it. Maybe you big people can and why you can is beyond me. I’m sorry I do not want someone that killed an innocent horse that wouldn’t perform to their standards killed in order for them not to lose any money on them back into the organization that represents me. And I also think it shows the general public that the TRUE horsemen out there are very concerned by our image and do not want it sullied by the reinstatement of these people. It would be such a HUGE blot against our industry if these people were allowed back in. It just screams to the public that we don’t care that they had horses cruelly killed for money alone. If I was a parent and realized that an organization I wanted to join and have my child show at this orginizations shows allowed these people back in there is no way my child would be allowed anywhere near this orginiations shows. And just so you know I haven’t always been one of the little people. I was heavily involved in the upper levels of showing when these crimes were committed.
Anyone who is late with any papers I leave for Cincinnati on Tuesday, will be there to the bitter end. You can fax or overnight mail to me to the Hotel or meet me at the hotel if and I hope there will be some moral support for this cantankerous old lady I hate sitting alone like the bullseye on a target.
The name for the Registration at the hotel is: Vikki Karcher Siegel…Snowbird Acres Farm.
My Cell: is 908-887-4800 I usually have it on.
I will take notes from the meetings and post when I get back. But, I’ll need a day to sleep off the traveling.
War Admiral, You have done more than enought today. You have had us all evaluate what is right and wrong. Lets try again tomorrow.
ohk, and you probably were outraged. So how 'bout my other exmaples Doctors? Cops? go for it
Uberraschung there are many farms that don’t own any land.As a show manager I have to go by the book and the book says if a horse want’s to compete owned by Acres Wild Farm from RI; I have to accept the entries as it is now listed as active.
It may not be PV’s fault but it’s there and if there is no such farm at that address he should have retired the name.
Congratulations on your article, WA, I found the Mason comment interesting in that even he said it was the letter of the law that was complied with. He might as well have added “but not the spirit”.
It’s been very interesting to hear the thoughts of people at various “levels” of showing on this topic. Disregarding the flaming, there has been a lot of thoughtful comment, I think.
It must be very hard to know a person in one context and have to look at them in another. I’ve been through this with personal friends who have done things I just cannot condone, and have had to make painful choices about where to draw the line. It’s never easy, but for me I find that if I’m gonna whine and be loud, I’d better be able to justify my loudness, and the best way to do that is to be considered and consistent in what I say matters to me. Yes, that can change with time and growth, but when it does it’s MY obligation to acknowledge that change and accept that others may find it hypocritical.
The issue of what I consider unethical/unacceptable behavior is one that makes me pause about doing the As. I DO NOT want to give my money to trainers that have been set down, but the longer I’m riding the more I learn this seems to be far more than I had hoped. Ultimately, it may mean I choose not to “move up” but instead to improve and enjoy myself down at the locals. And yes, it will be partly so that I don’t contribute to what I consider unacceptable practices.
Everyone is entitled to feel as they wish on this topic. Certainly we have the right to let USEF know that the idea of reinstating PV isn’t acceptable; others have the right to say it is. But unless you do speak out and are willing to acknowledge that, I’m not sure you can comfortably say that you’ve truly considered the issue. I, chanda, Racetb and others have…have you?
Originally posted by ise@ssl:
Snowbird - watch yourself - this gal has actually taken a lesson from PV - one lesson - she knows him and if you read the other thread - she knows he TOOK THE FALL FOR THE TEAM!
One lesson and she knows - he’s the best Eq trainer there is - even with binoculars and cell phones - he be da best!
well this one proves my last post on the other thread. you have no argument. IMO hes one of the best eq trainers because i’ve seen his riders (past and present) not because i took a lesson from him. you really are the worst interpreter in the world.
OK! Harry I understand the fundamentals of the game and a game. What I don’t understand (beyond the ying yangs who get paid $100 million to risk their limbs) why it matters?
You have two teams of huge men all but kill each to get to that line they have to get over. My question is WHY? Take high school or even college they do the same thing for free. What it all reminds me of is a devious mascarade of the Roman Coliseum; modern style. Stands filled with citizens to watch the gladiators.
Then you have teams of tall skinny men who have to get the ball in the hoop. Or the little fast guys hitting the ball with a bat sliding face down in the dirt to be below the line not to get tagged.
My question is why as civilized people do we care who wins the game or want to sit there watching? How does that give pleasure? To make it horse related as a sociology thesis perhaps there is a way to convert that energy to horses.
For example let’s say that people spectate because their pleasure is watching crashes and broken bones. Maybe instead of teaching perfection which more an art than sport we need to have the “elite” who look like their life is at risk.
How many people who don’t know how to ride well would welcome the opportunity to try for $1 million? Perhaps we need to rethink the way we teach the sport. The biggest event at the Garden was Thursday night’s Puisance.
Originally posted by xegeba:
First… the buyer in PV case was PV. So … the only thing he was dealing with was his own bad roll of the dice. Second… if there was no insurance policy… the horse goes to the killers… just like every other horse that is lucky enough to be owned by an a**wipe who thinks of them as a commodity and does not have enough money to insure them. some of these people are in good standing with USEF.
Do you think he would have sent the horse to the killers and take that big loss? Wouldn’t sheer greed make him find an excuse to sell him down the road for maybe less than he paid but surely more than a killer price, or would ego have been to much for that?
How about if it was a client horse? How does one explain that decision to someone who has paid big bucks for a horse that now is only worth killer price?
If people can’t sign, they need to check and make sure their web browser is accepting cookies.
Originally posted by horse_poor:
I have said it before and will say it again”"I will be highly pissed if any of them get reinstated and I paid money to be lumped into an organization along side them.
!*
Well be pissed then b/c nancy banfield was reinstated.
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