One person who cannot be reinstated is a good place to start. Maybe others will not be so quick to try and get away with this.
Originally posted by BAC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by jetsmom:
This is kind of off topic a little, but one of the things that I found so horrific, is that when the authorities were “on” to what was going on, they heard about a horse that was “scheduled” to be killed. They sent people to stake out the barn and videotape what went on. The video showed a horse having his legs being broken with a crowbar and turned loose so it would look like an accident. THe authorities did not intervene, because they needed to actually catch them filing an insurance claim in order to get them for more than a misdemeanor. After the “perps” left, a vet came out and put the horse down which was truly suffering and going into shock. This video was one of the most horrible things I have ever seen, and I think of it everytime the name of one of those involved is mentioned. I find it somehow equally troubling that what they did to that horse was allowed to happen because in the eyes of the law, torturing an animal is somehow a lesser crime than ripping off an insurance company. That seems so wrong to me.
Did anyone else see the video to which I am referring?
I didn’t see the tape but I believe this was Streetwise (f/k/a Innisfree).
I’ll sign the petition too, I don’t believe in forgiveness when it comes to cruelty to animals. Everyone involved in these murders should have received lifetime bans in addition to their jail sentences. Its very disappointing to hear that many of the “big names” in our sport continue to befriend PV and do business with him. Whether a petition will do any good or not we owe it to these horses to try.
I admire you buryinghill2, especially since PV was such a good friend, too bad there are not more people in this business with the courage to turn their backs on these murderers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I remember Innisfree (circa 1985) as a yearling since I showed my first warmblood crosses in that era. He was correct and a legend as a young horse. I was horrified to find he was the same horse Streetwise that was murdered! If you ever saw him…you’d never forget him…he was a brilliant chestnut with four knee high white stockings…which make the quote from jetsmom so horrifying. NO reinstatement!!! Stand up for the defenseless horses that are the heart and soul of our sport for the majority of us.
This runs concurrent to another thread about felons who are petitioning the Federal Court to “allow” them to go back to the horses industry after pleading GUILTY to crimes which landed them a jail sentence of 15-18 months and which they plead guilty to pay restitution of over $52,000 instead of facing the court and only three of their victims…there appear to be many more…and as I say…you are not just a little guilty when you plead guilty to Federal charges!!
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/7076024331/m/270206967/p/1
Premeditated actions are not simple mistakes! Negligence is NOT a mistake!! This industry needs to be vigilant to protect the membership and especially the horses!! We do not owe them a living…and certainly NOT on the blood of our horses!
War Admiral…thanks for the link
Please sign the “NO REINSTATEMENT” petition:
http://www.petitiononline.com/valliere/petition.html
Joan Watt
Yes Vandy!!! Thank you!!..it’s not a frightening ability to compartmentalize, Lori B. It’s just weird to jump on the bandwagon over a a wrong that has been exposed [and punished]…when you met some of the accused over breakfast every day for a zillion years…were HELPED by some of these folks and never saw an inhumane tendency whatsoever in your own personal dealings with them. Notice that almost everyone personally exposed to PV [and others] has misgivings about the turn this thing has taken. …and yes, I’ve disliked our “powers that be” since the AHSA in the 1960’s. Perhaps you’re right about shrugging my shoulders and letting our FINE organizations take care of things…but I just can’t get the picture of a torch bearing lynch mob out of my head when I read through these posts. Again, I’ll draw my line in the sand and live with it…and turn my efforts to the still suffering horses in the forgotten, under the radar, Hell barns that are still out there flourishing.
Taking the plunge to point out that it is possible to be a former friend, colleague, student, client etc. of PV and/or to believe he is genuinely and deeply remorseful–and also believe that he should not be re-instated, even though he was given the option to apply to be.
PV would not be deprived of a livelihood, only denied membership.
I personally believe re-instatement is inappropriate for all involved. If this situation doesn’t warrant lifetime banning, it is difficult to imagine what would. Sanctions need teeth or they aren’t sanctions.
I hope that some of the previous posters that are PV supporters/fans/neutral reflect on this sentiment. Perhaps N&B&T would be so bold as to start a new thread. It could be titled “please read if you support PV or are PV neutral”. The meat of the post would be the above statement. Maybe that would lead to further discussion?? I know “pounding the pulpit” won’t change anyone but perhaps if we could just get a few people to re-evaluate their positions. I have read with amazement some posts from people that support (or will not take a stand on) PV that otherwise seem like very reasonable folks.
xegeba, my menopause statement was not directed in your way. It was intended for those who equate menopause to drug addiction.
Originally posted by Countryhawk:
Harry,
Ie Barney Ward, Lindeman, Marion Hulick. If it weren’t for PV’s supporters it would be a general topic. Also I don’t believe any of them answered if they were pro reinstatement for the above names.
My opinion on Paul’s reinstatement is based on the facts as I know them, and the interaction I have had with him. Would I trust my horse in Paul’s barn. Yes. I would…I have…
As far as the others, show me the same criteria: “proof …taken steps to reform…performed community service to benefit the welfare of horses” and I will voice my opinion…
In the case of MV…no…based on my interaction with MV (I rode at Hulick’s, witnessed plenty)…based on interaction in the 80’s (I lived in NJ) NO I would not support her reinstatement…
anthem, where have you gotten these facts?
When did these opinion-altering facts occur? Not before the court case, it appears, since you accept that PV is guilty as charged.
Are they facts that would be accepted in a court of law?
Let us remember that the USEF Hearing Committee is not a court of law. Among other things, courts of law are public records. And I suspect courts of law require more stringent proof of facts.
Indefinite suspension is a revocation of the privilege of membership rights, not a sentence. PV did not serve a sentence. Permission to apply for reinstatement was attached to his suspension but reinstatement is not an entitlement.
The analogy of a “sentence” being “served” and ended is inapt.
With regard to the two men convicted of fraud:
- Perhaps you should discuss with the judge and jury who convicted them your feelings about facts. Or perhaps you can get a transcript from the bb posters who were at the trial?
- Unlike PV (and others), their probation precludes ANY involvement with horses. Therefore, unlike PV (and others), their sentence prevents them from earning a livelihood with horses.
I suppose that makes a USEF suspension moot; however, I agree that people in this situation should be suspended for some period at least.
At any rate, anthem, your assertion that you know facts which you will not disclose or prove is, to me, the equivalent of the “gossip” which you find so distasteful.
Jumpin up Jaysus, this stuff makes me crazy!
What do you mean that was than and that is how it was done. What are you nuts!
This weeks issue of COTH has a picture of 30 year old THE NATURAL basking in his glorious retirerment.
THATS HOW IT’S DONE. Than and now. Or should be anyway. ESPECIALY IF YOU HAD THE MEANS TO DO IT.
OK, War Admiral, found something else for you… Chicago Trib, July 13, '95. It’s an article entitled “Jayne kin, 3 others tied to horse fires” and is primiarly about an indictment against Daniel Jayne.
In a separate incident, longtime equestrian Robert Cheska, 39, of Waukesha, Wis., and James Heinsohn, 66, of Glenview were indicted for arson in connection with the May 1984 fire that gutted Heinsohn’s Lake Villa house, which was insured for $320,000 [Lake County State’s Atty. Michael] Waller said.
Cheska grew up on land owned by Silas Jayne along Nesler Road in Kane County.
Cheska’s father, Dick, and Silas Jayne were longtime friends in the show horse business, sources said.
Details of the Lake Villa fire emerged in federal court in August 1994 as part of the probe that spun out of the Helen Brach investigation.
In a hearing before U.S. District Judge Charles Kocoras, Ronald Mueller, formerly of Harvard, pleaded guilty to charges that he lied to federal agents in 1991 when he was questioned about horse killings.
In endtering his plea, Mueller said Heinsohn paid him $10,000 to burn down the Lake Villa house for insurance purposes. Mueller is expected to testify in the Heinsohn and Cheska cases, Waller said.
Mueller, who told Kocoras that he killed six horses in an insurance fraud scheme, said two of the animals belonged to Heinsohn.
He said he fatally struck Jatomic Streaker, a horse insured for $50,000, on the head wiht a crowbar in January 1984.
Mueller testified that he electrocuted Heinsohn’s horse Pet Of The Year, which was insured for $40,000, in February 1987.
Heinsohn and Cheska are scheduled to surrender to authorities when they appear in court on July 20.
Saddlebag - I see no one trying to discredit the “A” Circuit here. Heck, I show on the A circuit, albeit not at WEF. I don’t assume anyone who competes on the level condones killing horses for insurance money either. I do, however, have a problem with allowing these criminals back into our USEF. I don’t care to see them at the shows. I don’t care to have my child (yes, I have one and she also shows on the A circuit), around these criminals either.
However, I’m not sure the upcoming Animal Planet show is the place for this publicity. I see both sides on this one.
It is difficult to have faith that the USEF will not allow the others back in. They have already let one back in.
This petition/movement is NOT anything like jury tampering. Come on! I would think it might be more similar to a parole hearing however, where interested parties ARE allowed to voice their misgivings AND support.
See above note about the USEF…They have already let one of these criminals back in - that I’ve heard of. We’re now trying to make sure no OTHERS get back in.
I have no problem reading for comprehension. I don’t know anything about any lynch mob.
AWF is owned by someone other than PV, but somehow PV gets paid to train and make decisions in care for horses there. There are also other trainers on AWF payroll who are the ones who sign off on entries of clients of PV and the other trainers?
Originally posted by anthem35:
Whats clear is that Paul can do whatever he chooses to do…He is free to train anyone he chooses to on his private property.
So who’s property is it anyway? anthem35 seems to be saying it is his.
So did anyone look up Acres Wild Farm? Well it is active, and Paul Valliere is listed with the USEF as owner. No bold red thru the farm name what so ever. So, can anyone tell me, does this mean the farm is not suspended?
War Admiral,
While I agree this could go on for years, PV will be the first and probably most supported of those seeking reinstatement. We should take the opportunity to use his application to set a precedent for those to follow. If we succeed this time, it will just get easier, however if he is reinstated, it will be a difficult arguement to keep the others out.
What do you do when you don’t follow the protocol - beat them up behind the barn? 
Oh! dear someone was holding the wrong end of the snake. They just got bit in the heinie. You see that’s why I love democracy. The combined brains of a majority always exceeds that of the few.
War Admiral asked the question about whether the racing industry, Standardbred and TB has rules about setting people down for life if they are convicted of killing horses. They do. They are very strict about it, in fact. I’d have to go look it up, but I do know they are not allowed back on a racetrack ever again and (this is the part I am not sure of) may be banned from owning a horse that races as well.
Re: tax write offs. The change in the tax laws in 1987 which precludes writing off 100% of a horse’s value for charitable deduction is what started this whole thing off in the first place. You still get some tax deduction, but it based on the same formula (% of total income) as other charitable deductions. Still, it’s a viable alternative to sending a still useful horse to the killers.
If you run your horse operation as a business, there are two ways of taking a write-off. One, if the horse should die and it is not insured, you can take it as an uninsured business loss. Or, if the horse is injured and cannot be used ever again for it’s original purpose, you can do the same (in some instances). You can deduct the expenses for the horse, including - if you are selling horses, entry fees as marketing expenses. But, the IRS does insist you make a profit 2 years out of the first 7 you are in business. Otherwise, your horses are considered to be a hobby and you are subject to reassessment for tax purposes and will have to pay back taxes, fees & fines. Not fun.
Re: being out front with who you are rather than incognito. I took a quick gander at mwe’s “public profile” or rather lack of it. If you compare that to mine, where anyone and everyone can find out who I am, where I live it’s really a contrast. So, come out from the shadows if you want to have any credibility.
Finally, targeting Paul IS an answer. Or, rather part of it. I agree the way to prevent this from happening again is to educate young trainers and make them think twice about the consequences. Keeping a white hot spotlight on the issue and refusing to sweep in under the carpet is one way to do so. Sort of “Don’t do the crime, if you can’t do the time.”
Maim? Ya think it will only be maim? Come on we all know better than that. 
Turning in their graves, hell they probably are getting ready to come up to the mick and speak. Listen hard younguns, you will hear them too. 
Show’s you how wrong their records are. Snowbird Acres Farm, is an LLC and doesn’t own the farm at all. It doesn’t carry the mortgage or pay the property taxes or pay the insurance. They haven’t updated the records since we first got that farm number 28 years ago.
You are responsible for updating your information.
However, should there be a question of suspension, it doesn’t matter who owns and supports the actual property. The only thing that matters is who owns the farm name in the USEF records.
LMAO!! He is a thing of beauty. I will be the envy of all when I finish my collection by attaining the elusive CURLING JESUS. Who could resist these precious statues???
Oh hell Seal, it’s been a long crappy winter…I’m obviously losing what little mind I have left. 
Fairview-I couldnt agree with you more.
But what perhaps people have chosen to overlook is that he IS trying to help.
Paul spent WEEKS in Louisiana doing whatever he could to help the families and their animals devastated by the hurricane.
He has donated large sums of money to several animal related charities.
He did write a letter of apology to the Chronicle, for all the members of the USEF to read.
What I am saying is this—he IS TRYING.
I am certain that if you were to cross paths, he would apologize to YOU…Personally.
But people need to take their feet off his neck and let him up for air so he CAN apologize.
