As a member of that committee, I personally concern myself with issues and conditions that currently affect horse welfare.
Enough said. Thank you so much for caring about horses of the past.
I care about horses of the past, but not as a member of the horse welfare committee. In that aspect I am concerned with those of the present and future.
you just can’t stand it…
Originally posted by twotrudoc:
I have been showing my whole life. Granted, not H/J, but I have been at all levels of showing in Morgans, QHs, and Paint. I never knew anything like this to be “just done”. We “did” a lot of drinking in the arena after the Morgan shows, but we “didn’t” kill our horses who didn’t place well for insurance money.
Honestly you guys, this went and goes on all the time. I definitely know of one very prominant case in the Morgan industry where one of the saddlebreds who was passed as a Morgan mysteriously died when sanctions made it so that the mare was supposed to be DNA tested…so it’s not a HJ phenomenon by any means.
I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, but whether you are aware of it or not, it does and has been happening all along. PV was unusual in that he got caught. I know of at least 10 others who weren’t and who many of you probably would never know that they did something like this (and indeed, they are mentioned on quite a few threads as honest, etc).
Just food for thought, although you probably won’t take it as such 
Ahem. Remember folks, this thread needs to stay very, very tame. Go outside and beat up on a tree or something if you need to, before you hit the “post now” button. 
mwe, I have seen people get tarred and feathered on this BB for sending horses to slaughter also. But, as was previously pointed out, that’s not really a valid comparison because it’s not illegal to slaughter a horse.
However, personally, I wouldn’t train with someone who made a habit of disposing of unsuccessful show horses that way.
These people were suspended because they committed FELONIES by defrauding insurance companies, and because the methods by which these horses were killed were cruel. Obviously, there are plenty of people in the show world who treat horses in ways many of us would find unacceptable – hopefully, those who find their methods unacceptable don’t train with them. And if their methods run afoul of USEF rules, they are set down.
There are only so many instances in which USEF can act, though. In the cases of the insurance fraud killers, it DID have jurisdiction to act. The people were suspended. And the members have a right to voice their opinions on their POTENTIAL reinstatement. (Remember, they have to apply – it’s not an automatic reinstatement, and the USEF has the right to consider the person’s actions and accept or deny the application.)
You’re certainly welcome to the opinion that PV should be reinstated. But, frankly, I find your justifcations for doing so a little … odd.
(BTW, someone refresh my memory… who else, earlier in this thread, was talking about sending horses to slaughter?)
I would defiitely sign!
In regard to the people who mentioned that insurance premiums on expensive horses were too high to make them worthwhile, I am sure you realize that the risk involved in insuring them have driven the rates up. Insurance prices are calculated based on history, if a significant number of horses in that price or age group results in claims, the premiums are going to go up. If it becomes apparent to the insurance company that horse people are prone to fraudulent behavior, the premiums will go up.
Oxer I don’t think they will feel challenged by our little bitty campaign. We’ve been down that road twice already. I certainly don’t mind if it reminds people to donate to the heart fund at my age.
Originally posted by big dawg:
War Admiral–make mine a MGD
seriously though I would not sign the No Reinstatement Petition because I don’t agree with it. I think most of these people should be allowed to be reinstated and will trust the hearing committee to weigh all the facts and make a correct decision–I do believe those on the committee care about the sport and the public’s perception of the sport, but also recognize that they have a higher authority to answer to, i.e. the USOC and the IOC. I don’t see drugging in violation of the Rules as any different–if it is not animal abuse to have your horse in a drunken stupor just so you can win a class, then I don’t know what is? And I am against animal abuse…I am a breeder and own horses that I am very partial to on lots of levels…I care about my animals, and wish others would feel the same way–but they don’t and that probably includes half the USEF membership–the city dwellers who just come out in their expensive SUV, get on the horse that the groom has all prepared and that the trainer beat the prior two days because it wouldn’t go for the lady because she is such a bad rider–then she takes her lesson, hops off, hands it back to the groom, maybe feeds it a couple of carrots, then off to shopping with her friend. Don’t get me started on this H/J industry. I am a jumper rider for over 25 years. I know how it is. And I don’t mean to condemn all the owners and riders, as there are many just like me who are always trying to do the right thing. But we have far more problems in this industry than these 2 doaen or so people, who no doubt will never do anything like this again, and who could serve as a voice in this industry as they have done something they are ashamed of and perhaps if around to tell others just may keep someone else from doing something similar.
Big Dawg - Miller coming right up - in a No Reinstatement Beer Stein! (O.K., joke is stale; beer is not. 
)
But seriously: I totally understand and respect your reasons for not signing. They’re very well stated.
It would indeed have been very nice if any of the “horse killers” had stepped up and become strong loud voices against horse abuse. They would have commanded a serious amount of respect (including mine) if they had done so. Unfortunately, none of them have.
Even the ones who are attempting to prove their own “total rehabilitation” to satisfy the standards set out by the USEF Hearing Committee ("…affirmative proof of total rehabilitation, including proof that s/he has taken steps to reform him/herself and has performed community service to benefit the welfare of horses…") are not really satisfying the Committee’s criterion of public service “to benefit the welfare of the horse”.
One is working, from what I understand, in a therapeutic riding program - which by all means is certainly public service (provided she’s not getting paid), but it didn’t benefit the HORSES last time I checked; another one, whom we all know, seems to regard volunteer judging at WEF on off-days as a “community service of benefit to the horses”, which is kind of a novel stance IMO…
So can anyone show me where any of these people have made ANY serious attempt to convince anyone that they’ve done ANYTHING AT ALL for the benefit of the horses during the time they’ve been suspended?
In addition to which, from what I understand, insurance premiums tend to be a bit higher at the barns of those “horse killers” who continue to do business as trainers. Now, I’m definitely not a risk management professional (can’t do math, teehee), but if the insurance premiums are higher at those barns, could it be because professional risk assessors think there is in fact some kind of risk, at least statistically speaking, that one or more of these people will do it again?
I’m not attacking, I’m just asking.
Snowbird: That is great news! Thanks so much!! Is it too late for folks who have not ordered bracelets from you to place an order?
I was thinking of weaving a basket for you anyway. Just in case.
Because picketing the governing body is how to let the governing body know how their members feel about a cause/decision/ruling etc.
but it’s not morals or principals that are going to get you anywhere
With a statement like that I truly understand why the world is going down hill! 
Your points are well taken Fariview. But believe the intent of the rule is to stop suspended person from being on, showing or training at a USEF event. Thanking someone doesn’t fall into these catagories. No matter how distasteful it is.
Originally posted by jn1193:
I am wondering for the show managers (Snowy) if it is possible - should more folks be reinstated - to refuse their entries. I know Dolores Swan wouldn’t have a problem with it. But would any other show manager step up and be willing to make that kind of stand. I mean, WEF is refusing entries from an “R” judge who complained about them putting up new stabling tents behind her property! (It’s on another thread.) Does that even compare to this? Could we (the No REIN people) lobby them? Just a thought.
Why do you say that Dolores Swann wouldn’t have a problem refusing the entries?
KAP,it doesnt at all…just seems as though the masses are focusing now on his apparently subversive attempts to crawl about the showgrounds on off days in an attempt to piss off the USEF. Quite amusing, really.
The line “it was accepted at the time” shows little to no remorse to me. This from a supporter? Well, seems to me you answered the question. Now we know there is no remorse for what happened. Thank you. We needed that to be clear. And it looks like the mind set is being taught as well.
The verbage used to ban horse killing, not slaughter, needs to be specific. No loop holes for anyone. What it takes to do these things, thankfully I will never understand. But we do need to make sure offenders are not brought back with “all’s forgiven.”
Originally posted by War Admiral:
PLEASE can we keep it civil? Let’s not turn this into a “Let’s Bash Chanda” thread for x more pages.
I happen to disagree with Chanda, rather vehemently, as to whether the reinstatement of the “horse killers” is a current horse welfare issue or not. But we’ve always been able to be polite about the disagreement and I hope that will continue.
The reason I believe it IS a current horse welfare issue is that USEF has already reinstated one of these people, and will probably reinstate the rest as and when they become eligible to apply, UNLESS there is significant public opposition to that.
As I’ve stated many times, I don’t feel that reinstatement is appropriate for ANY of these people. You knowingly kill a horse for profit - you should no longer be a member of USEF.
WA…I didn’t know that anyone had been reinstated already. Would you mind telling us who that is?
Kudos Hiddenlake!
Dear little puppy, there is a difference between someone who was tried and convicted and confessed to their guilt of a felony that directly involved their participation in an illegal way in this sport and industry. Druggersd have not been prosecuted and most have not confessed their guilt.
If the USEF chose a District attorney could prosecute those who tested positive for drugging horses under the “racketeering laws”; I think those are called the Ricco laws. Anyone guilty of tampering with the results of a sport competition. I don’t know if that’s a felony or a misdemeaner. In my personal opinion the County should be notified whenever someone is caught and they should be the ones to prosecute both under Ricco and for Animal abuse. That would end the drugging problem very quickly. If the USEF does not purssue that recourse I am embarrased by them.
I am personally offended when righteous people say it’s nothing to collect insurance money fraudulently. It’s costs us each one when they do and they caused their own loss. I am offended when righteous people think that selling someone’s horse and not giving them the full amount that was paid short of a legal 10% commission is criminal enough for the USEF to recognize a court order. I am personally offended if our Federation chooses not to respect the Law enough to abide by the decisions of a court order.
Not to enforce the rules in the rule book that are available for this purpose is collusion and consent to criminal activities.
Just to clarify, Anthem. You pay show training fees to a different entity/person who does not, in any way, pass along any of those fees to PV.
A quick question. Obviously, those training with PV off site, do not list him as their “trainer” on their entries. But, how does this other trainer sign off as far as care/custody on your horse with regards to medications, etc.? Or, do you sign as your own trainer at the shows?
Just call Oprah.
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