Portia, dear, you are just a wealth of information! 
Thanks!
Friends don’t let friends ride junk!
I’m sorry, this has nothing to do with this thread, but just based on the quotes in that one single article, Wendy V. makes me wanna spew. 
And Chanda (if I may be so bold as to use your given given name! 
), I think MadCat’s and others point is that an amateur eq division would allow those so inclined to buy a kid (including one not physically gifted enough to be competitive at the A’s in hunters) and bring it along themselves with the idea of making their “perfect” horse. They aren’t looking so much for resale as for a horse that they, themselves, can be competitive on. 
It’s a movie I’m currently starring in myself! Perhaps not a good “investment” from a businessperson’s point of view, but…
***** Currently assigned to the mouth-gaping, lip-flapping, head-twisting, wood-chewing, boot-shredding phase of baby greenie ownership! *****
Actually, you can ask them to wait to draw blood until after the horse is finished showing so I would guess the same would be true for urine. However, I think it is the way in which you handle things that may be the issue. You cannot refuse to have your horse tested unless you want to get suspended. The testers stay with the horse until they get a specimen. You can also refuse to allow them to give it Lasix until after it has finished showing as well I believe without putting yourself at risk for non-compliance.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Risey27:
interesting to see that Barney Ward has at least 6horses on the list if not more…<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> hmmmm think? 
WHO could stay married to a horse killer?!?!?!
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Third, you couldn’t ride or warm up prior to shipping in to a day show? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The rule says “adjacent grounds”. If you ship in for a day show, you aren’t “warming up on adjacent grounds.”
Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nattie:
…I don’t think anyone who shows at C shows are going to drug their horses b/c it isn’t worth it to them…
That’s my $0.02… I haven’t read this entire thread and am going to stay out of it. If I’m going to pay my $8 at every show, I would like to see it used on horses that it matters… not random horses.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Must not have been to the same “c” rateds I’ve been to, for these lower level shows attract some of the not so good trainers dragging unsuitable horses/ignorant owners around hoping to get away with a shot of whatever because “nobody cares about c shows”
This is what continues to irk me about this thread…the winners at AA level are well selected for their job, properly trained with no expense spared and well ridden by a pro or well coached ammy. It’s those random ones that NEED to be pulled…the not so good, not so well ridden and the flat out unsuitable for the job ones that beg the less scrupulous trainers to “make up for their shortcomings” with a syringe full of the drug du’jour instead of fessing up to the owner the horse cannot do it.
The smaller the show the MORE likely outright pharmaceutical enhancement is blatently practiced because they feel “nobody cares enough to watch”.
Happens on all levels, of course. But, in my experience, the smaller the show, the more blatent the abuse.
The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That’s the way it is.
this thread is annoying
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own -Grateful Dead
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
Since the rules of suspension forbid a suspended person from being on the show grounds, the trainer in question was not violating the rules. And to be fair it is hard to see a way to toughen up that requirement in such a way that will stop the suspended trainer from doing the proxy training method. It’s not like they can limit the person’s access to the airwaves or public grounds.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In eventing, two-way radios are in fact prohibited on the grounds. Using one is cause for elimination.
You could make it against the rules to send such a signal or to receive coaching in this manner. You could extend the suspended person’s suspension and you could suspend the assistant trainer and his riders.
I’m curious, is there any legal med that is given via syringe??
LEP, I’m pointing out that you can’t assume the riders in the preadults are beginner-intermidate riders. Some are very skilled riders who, for various reasons, are riding their green horses themselves. The pre adult is at 2’6, the pregreens at 3’. Many are looking for mileage at a low height before moving the horse into the AAs, or pregreens if they are that good.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
Barney wasn’t suspended for prohibitted substances. 
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Which would make it even more horrendous for him to profit off of the horses!!
“Some people need to buy the winners, others make them.”
Janet, reserpine isn’t just a tranquilizer (I don’t think), given that it’s also classed as a psychotropic. Thought this definition was interesting.
“Reserpine: alkaloid isolated from the root of the snakeroot plant (Rauwolfia serpentina), a small evergreen climbing shrub of the dogbane family native to the Indian subcontinent. Known in India as Sarpaganda, it was used for centuries to treat insanity as well as physical illnesses such as fevers and snakebites. After its isolation in 1952 it was used to lower high blood pressure, but its property of producing severe depression as a side effect also made it useful in psychiatry as a tranquilizer in the control of agitated psychotic patients. It has largely been replaced in psychiatric use by the phenothiazine tranquilizers, although it is still used as an experimental tool in the study of psychosis. Reserpine causes many toxic side effects including nightmares, Parkinsonism (see Parkinson’s disease), and gastrointestinal disturbances.”
Fun stuff for a horse, huh?
Is there a method on the books now to set someone down permanently? IIRC correctly, there was a time when a lifetime suspension was not possible under the existing rules.
And LH your point brings up another often debated topic-hidden commissions and double dipping…it just adds to the frustration of trying to honestly do business in a business often criticized for being dishonest.
Written contracts, full disclosure, accountability and liability–these are some of the cornerstones to solving the neverending complaints of the industry.
No more not letting buyers and sellers discuss matters-no more 3rd party trainers getting a cut. If I bought a higher priced horse I would INSIST on a contract that disclosed where EACH dollar goes-x to buyer, y to buyer’s trainer and z to seller’s trainer.
I also think owner’s need to self educate-if you are getting your informaion from those that are dishonest to begin with the the education isn’t very valuable.
A code of ethics-with punishment for violation is a being and a board or panel that is unbiased and fair.
It would make the whole idea of buying and selling horses far more palatable.
When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress
Let’s put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peggy:
Also, given my trainer’s experience with the show vet at a CDI (horse appeared to be colicking, trainer wanted to scratch horse so he could give it appropriate meds, show vet would not let him do this) I’m not sure I’m ready to hand off my horse to every “official” vet at any show. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now that’s a new one on me. I’ve never heard of a vet, any vet, telling someone they’re not allowed to scratch their horse. After all, when I pay an entry fee and am the owner of the horse, how can a vet come to me and tell me “It doesn’t matter what you want, you can’t scratch and you have to compete”. Doesn’t exactly ring true, does it? 
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
OK, how is spending $1250 a month in board logical? I think my situation is more normal than yours because my board has always been in the neighborhood of $300-400 a month.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It’s not more normal in the situations being discussed. You’re discussing so-called BNTs. Therefore, your situation is not a normal one in these cases. That was the entire point.
http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I’m making generalized statements regarding the use of drugs on a regular basis to campaign a horse with the end goal being winning. I don’t care if it’s a leadline mom, BNT or backyard yahoo. It’s a shortcut, it’s not in the horse’s best interest and it’s poor sportsmanship.
The use of drugs allows inferior trainers, riders and horses to artificially accomplish what naturally talented trainers, riders and horses can accomplish with a logical, systematic training and showing program.
Now let me get this straight. A fine totalling $550 (trainer + owner) for Rainier was levied. It cost the USAE $350 for the lab work. It was posted here that it was contested so we have to assume staff time was expended on not only the original findings but the follow up. So given the cost of personnel, correspondence, etc. - it would probably be safe to assume the FINE didn’t even cover the COST to the USAE.
Sorry folks - but at the very minimum a sanction and fine should at least have a monetary value in excess of the COST to the USAE (which is the members).
Also - I’d rather see a set MENU of fines for various infractions, i.e. this drug = this fine; # of horses = this increase; #of previous infractions for individuals involved - multiple of “x”. There seems to be too much latitude in the current system and begs the question constantly of prejudice - either negative or positive.
Sorry - this part was unclear - there shouldn’t be any reward for it being the “first time” a person has a negative blood test on a horse. Otherwise the temptation is always there and the person might think they can get off easy the FIRST time.
[This message was edited by ise@ssl on Dec. 17, 2003 at 03:16 PM.]
As horrible as this thread is, I believe some really useful dialogue is coming out of it.
I think the idea of REAL fines for these issues – fines that cover the ACTUAL COSTS of testing PLUS – are a much needed step. And I think LH’s idea of samples and retroactive disbarrment is brilliant.
So…how do those of us who don’t show pharmacologically enhanced horses see such things become reality? Or can we?
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
Maybe the vet doesn’t know AHSA rules. The AHSA can do whatever they want. This isn’t law. They don’t need ‘jurisdiction.’ The worst thing they could do to a vet is ban him from horse shows.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
USA Eq/USEF does require jurisdiction to be able to act against an individual. The person has to be a member of the org or on the grounds of a recognized show.
Rules and rules enforcement is a matter of law, in that if the organization does not follow its established procedures, and if those procedures are not deemed to be fair and reasonable, the sanctions it imposes can be challenged in court and will be thrown out, and the org can be liable for damages. USA Eq/USEF’s hearings and discipline procedures have been challenged in court many times – perhaps most notably by George Lindemann, Jr. when he was suspended for horse killing and then sued for a huge amount in damages because the AHSA “interfered” with his business by kicking him out. The AHSA/USA Eq and now USEF procedures have been consistently upheld by the courts, and the org is very conscientious serious about following them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry, I wasn’t clear… The AHSA can’t do anything to the guy but suspend him… assuming he is even an AHSA member.
