THE suspension list

[findeight]

Little late here…haven’t had time to play on the BB lately.

First I never said Europeans don’t participate in this…I said “don’t tell me they don’t”.

But the main reason I came in here when I swore I wouldn’t was to ask again…
Where is the information the initial post is based on???
I dove into the USAEQ mag today to find a selection of show officials/managers getting their wrists slapped and a single trainer knocked down for swearing at a child client.

That’s all they wrote.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That’s the way it is.

[DMK]

dab, I do believe it is the IV injection of Calcium that is the issue. As far as I know, that is and has always been a risky proposition…

“I used to care, but things have changed…” Bob Dylan

[17hTBmare]

Magnesium and calcium? Can someone tell me more about this?

[Magnolia]

I don’t want to get sucked into this… and I see your point… but
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If you want to blame anyone, blame the vet!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are a BNT responsible for BTH that are super nice and super fancy, YOU are being paid to know what the heck the vet is giving your clients horses and what ramifications that may have regarding competition. That is part of your job, and not the vets job. The vets job is to make sure the horse feels better. The trainers job is to make sure that the horse is ring ready, including having a knowledge of what is in that horses body at that time.

Hunters and jumpers at the top levels mean big $$$ - be it sales / prizes / training fees. Those trainers make top dollar and should have a working knowledge to justify their top dollar fees, which may in some cases include a knowledge of what drugs are not OK… and they sure should know what is going in their customer’s horses feed at night.

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

[DarkerHorse]

Guys… Remember.

As much as it seems the mixup might not really have been a mixup, people are innocent until proven guilty.

Why D’ya Do It?

[Tackpud]

I’ll go out on a limb - let’s get rid of the whole HOTY program - let’s go back to showing for the fun of it and not worry about points!

[WWCountry]

Court–I understand your point, but 2 things:

1. If i’m correct FEI rules do not allow for NSAIDS. That in itself reduces the number of injections tremendously. It is legal in the H/J world to use NSAIDS and their use will continue.
2. I’m not going to waste a $75 vial of Legend by giving it to my horse prematurely. 24hrs before showing is the recommendation from my Vet.

I don’t think it’s anyone’s thought to make properly medicating horses at shows difficult. I’m just not sure there is a way to control it.
No matter what controls are put in place, there will always be cheaters. That’s human nature–like it or not.

[dogchushu]

Speaking of investments (my area)…

Okay, I’m just a peon. I’m not in horses for the money, I don’t go to Florida for the winter, and I may never make it to indoors.

However, I totally understand the need as a professional in my field (investments) to produce results. Where my disconnect comes from is that I would never think of violating the rules of my governing organizations (in my case, the NASD or the SEC) in oder to produce those results.

I’m sure the CEOs of Enron, Worldcom, etc. felt pressure to show results for their shareholders. However, I don’t think that makes their actions okay.

I realize no one is arguing that violating the rules of USAEQ (particularly with respect to drugging for performance) is okay. However, it seems some are arguing that it’s understandable that some would cheat given the pressures of being in horses as a business.

I don’t understand. Oh, I “get it.” But I wouldn’t say I “understand.” That implies that I can relate and I can’t. It’s just wrong.

“Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.” – Thomas A. Edison

[stop4]

I really don’t care!!!

Sorry if I came off harsh… that was not my intention. I just wish that people would quit accusing every famouse person with drugging horses illegally on purpose thinkig that they wont get caught. That is not accurate and not fair to anyone, especially our sport because everyone bickering about a problem that is not as common and not as damaging as lunging a horse for hours, is pretty irelavent in my opinion. And its my opinion. I think that this rash or trainer suspensions is more minor mistakes and bad luck then anything else.

You can think whatever you want. I just thought I would point out the way that I see it. If you want to believe that this sport is totally corrupt and all the BNTs are cheaters that is fine. I happen to disagree!

Marion
Amalia

[CBoylen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
It’s a shame our recreational sport has to be policed like this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, I’m going to point out that I don’t qualify what we are discussing as a recreational sport. This is a business involving billions of dollars, with millions of professionals, customers, and employees. It has widespread effects on local economies, and upon other enterprises such as real estate, commerce, and small businesses of all kinds. An industry such as this, whatever it may involve and whatever its purpose, will always require policing of some kind.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

[Flash44]

Another thought, if your main point is to get mileage on your green horse, it should be more important to have each round be a positive experience for the hores rather than to worry about what the judge thinks. Many an amateur is happy to get around with a cooperative horse, and a top ribbon is a big bonus, while the pros are more likely to be expecting the good ribbon…

I rode my horse in the preadults when he was green mainly because I was not going to get up at the crack of dawn to spend all day watching someone else ride my horse. Plus, if I was going to open up my checkbook, I wanted to have the fun.

[LH]

Yeah, what Laurie said.

I think what a lot of people miss who are anti-anymedicationwhatsoever, is that the VERY regulated NSAIDS (Bute, Banamine, Ketofen, etc.) are regulated as “Non Steriodal Anti Inflammatory” medications. There are “steriodal” anti-inflammatory mediations, like Azium, that are legal (in regulated doses) and also effective for the anti-inflammatory features of those medications.

After all, when our horses are truly hurt (abscess, etc.), our vets often prescribe Bute and other meds to reduce inflammation.

If you have a horse who is otherwise sound at the horse show, but the footing is a little hard, or the horse did an extra class, the regulated (relatively small) amount of legal Bute/Banamine/whateveryourhorsewouldbenefitfrom will not alter their soundness. But it might reduce inflammation on a sound horse and allow them to be be more comfortable. A true horseman will know their horse well enough to know which beneficial medication could assist their athlete-teammate – the anti-inflammatory medications all have different properties and, arguably, work in slightly different ways.

I think that medications used this way – legally and well within the regulations – is far more beneficial than people who use no medications whatsoever, who are showing in as many classes as those who insist on using no medications, and who also have sound horses, but the horse may be a little stiff, or sore (STILL SOUND, THOUGH!), or uncomfortable. What some folks are missing is that an otherwise sound horse who is going to show that day, but who might be a little stiff and sore, but who exhibits no real signs of lameness in any way, would receive the (anti-inflammatory) benefit and relief from discomfort provided by a regulated and legal medication.

Again, you and I won’t snort cocaine to wake up and go in the ring when we didn’t sleep well the night before in a strange hotel room, but we do drink coffee in the morning! (I know, caffeine is not legal for horses . . .) And we wouldn’t take an opiate-pain reliever before we do the jumper classic, but we might take a motrin or two (or four) once in a while.

[CBoylen]

Sure, there are suspended people in FL. There are always, and probably always will be suspended people in FL. Since the WEF shows haven’t started yet, they’re perfectly welcome on the showgrounds, although they must avoid Littlewood. They’re always allowed on the properties in the village (depending on the particular property and its agreement with Stadium Jumping, that is). USEF cannot police private property.

I suggest anyone concerned about the ingredients of their treats or supplements both check the partial ‘forbidden substances’ list on the drugs and meds advice download and also call the drug hotline.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

[arnika]

I don’t know if I should be as surprised as I am at the responses that run from:

1.) The owners shouldn’t be blamed because they don’t know.

2.) The owners may or may not know but they don’t care.

3.) The owners know and think it’s perfectly acceptable so that they can “go for a swim, have lunch or go shopping.”

4.) “I’m not advocating it”, “I happen to think that it is a whole lot more sensible than lunging the **** out of them,”

5.) That this is the way the hunter world has to be to keep the wealthiest playing (and paying).

After reading these responses I understand the mindset.

Just will NEVER agree with it. Too bad it’s the horses who have to suffer.

[Portia]

There are actually two laboratory facilities, both owned by USA Equestrian Trust for the use of the National Federation.

The Federation had to set up its own lab because no other labs were suitable. Who else is going to invest the effort and money in developing and maintaining sophisticated facilities for testing for a very wide range of substances in equines? And who else is going to continue developing the tests necessary to be able to detect whatever the new “it won’t test” miracle substances are as they come along?

General veterinary labs don’t test for nearly the range of substances necessary for USEF’s needs. The racing labs are great for what they do, but they only screen for a limited number of substances. The goals of cheating in racing is relatively limited, after all – not much call for testing for the metabolites of 50+ different drugs that can make a horse calm and lethargic, or for a range of steriods that bulk a horse up for halter classes.

With respect to how a person can be held liable by USEF for what happens at an FEI event, competitors in FEI events are subject to the disciplinary rules of their own national federations as well as those of the FEI. If a German rider or driver does something at an FEI competition in Mexico, the German will be subject to discipline by both the FEI and the German FN.

[MsHunter]

Laurie states:

“Until the performances are allowed to have a little spice and brilliance, the choices are hours on the lunge line or “something” to deaden them. I don’t like either choice, but know which one I would prefer.”

What happened to RIDING THEM? Not galloping them to make them fitter and tired quicker but good old fashioned get your butt in the tack and ride. What about buying something younger and bringing it along yourself so it doesn’t have “holes” in it when you get it and require cocktail A or B to show? I just don’t know, we don’t do all the big “A” shows but ours go around just fine and they get good feed, good turnout and sure some of them need to tone it down a notch so they get worked. I have found though the better broke they are on the flat and the less they jump, the quieter they go around at the shows. Of course not all are this style or go this way but surely I think some of the horses are rushed and never get broke very well and the cocktail nightmare begins.

Owner/Trainer of http://www.geocities.com/plumstedequestrianctr/

[Trumpet]

Is this the link you are referring to?

http://www.usef.org/documents/drugsMeds/2004Advice.pdf

[M_O_Connor]

Averaging proposals have come and gone…I believe the concept has merit and should be seriously considered. The idea is to “average” points from a horse’s 15 or 20 “best” shows. There would be a minimum number of shows a horse must compete in before submitting an average, but generally be no maximum number of shows a horse could compete in, which would clearly benefit those top horses who earn a high average within a certain number of shows. I’m not so sure it would offer the same protections to horses that are below that top cut, whose owners/trainers might see an incentive to continue campaigning if they were able to “drop” shows at which they earned lowest number of points from their averaging list. An averaging system would need careful thought, and some tweaking as it became obvious where the weaknesses are. But I think it’s certainly worth considering.

However, those who thought up and benefit from the increment system are very devoted to it, and resistant to changing it.

But then I am not an advocate of chasing points. A long while ago, one of my best teachers (Robert Hoskins) pointed out to me a number of horses who were in the process of chasing HOTY points(in the days when B and C points DID count for something). His opinion was that the top point earner was seldom the “best” horse; it would often be the horse that simply attended the most events, a horse that never stayed home no matter how lousy the show was (or the footing, or the weather) because the main object was to earn the points. Yes, many would suffer from soundess issues ever after.

I am inclinded to conclude that there is an inherant conflict between a horse’s long term well-being, and the concept of earning, and eventually “chasing” points under the present structure. But not too hopeful that those whose vested interests lie in retaining the present system will allow significant changes to take place.

MCL

[Kitty]

But then the owner/trainer still profits from the sale of the horse, right? And if the reason for the suspension was use of prohibited substances, and the horse wouldn’t have performed as well without the help, then there’s an even bigger profit due to cheating.

[budman]

Sydney, I don’t mind paying top dollar for a good vet. However, both my vet and I agree that it is senseless for him to come every day to administer a medication if I am able to do so. He doesn’t have the time, and I don’t have the money. I don’t believe any one here has been complaining about regular vet fees. However, when one is at the mercy of the show vet’s fees, the bills can be extreme. It’s almost like buying a Coke at the food stand or leaving the grounds to buy one at 7-11. One’s more convenient, the other a lot cheaper.

If the D&M committee decides that all shots must be administered by the show vet, honest competitors will be penalized by eithor/or inflated fees to give meds or a backlogged vet who doesn’t have time to look at their horse.

And, not to be rude, but Flash, we get it. You truly believe that if the horse needs anything more than hay, water, and grain it shouldn’t be showing. Fine, that’s a valid viewpoint and I respect your opinion. However, you are not contibuting anything to this discussion at this point.

“There are friends and faces that may be forgotten, but there are horses that never will be.” Andy Adams
Gold Chips
Blondie