THE suspension list

[Moesha]

The point is this whole discussion is mixing apples with tuna sandwiches.

Obviously we have people with VASTLY different perspectives and show experiences trying to compare an industry that is too wide and varied into a blanket that cannot possibly contain such a multidimensional sport.

True, abuse is abuse…but one cannot compare a local event to Lake Placid or Wellington…trying to draw comparisions between the riders, trainers and horses being asked vastly different things is like comparing a weekend pick up game to the superbowl.

Right is right and wrong is wrong…but blatantly wrong generalizations and comparisons make this discussion mute.

I agree with a lot of what everyone is saying…excpet the comments that show no understanding of the immense financial bearing the A shows at the top level are dealing with

[Bliss]

Hey kids~ just a know-nothing wandering over from dressage land here, but this stuff is crazy! Maybe someone could dig up the drug testing rule, and y’all could start a new thread on how, exactly, you think it should be changed. Mods, would that be allowed? It sounds like submitting a rule change proposal is pretty painless, and if you all got together with all of the knowledge and great ideas already listed on this thread, I bet you would come up with something great.

Maybe that thread would make next year’s Best Of list! You could make a real, tangible difference in how horse abusers are treated. Just a thought…B.

[radio_talk_Aefvue_Fa]

All I can say Sandstone is unbelievable.

So it’s okay to cheat, as long as you don’t get caught??

[CBoylen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SydneyS:
C.Boylen - So how long does it take for you to make up your hunters? I don’t think 4 years is very long to take a young horse from just starting to jump to solid, 3’6" courses. Do you buy them out of the pre-greens, finish them off in the amateurs, then sell them? Also, I thought you bred some babies as well? Do you sell them right away as weanlings or wait until they turn 2 or 3? Can’t be much money in that…<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I mainly make up homebreds, if I buy, I really buy for the particular horse that is, for whatever reason, in a situation where I think it’s a good resale value. I sell my homebreds generally after a year of pregreen. Therefore, I breed them, start them undersaddle as late two year olds, work on them for a year, and show them as four year olds in the pregreen. At that point, they’re able to be priced appropriately, and usually sell early the next season. I consider them made up there, as they are ready to start the 3’6 if their purchaser is so inclined. I can’t give you an accurate profit margin, but I think I do quite well with returns on the young horses.
I have one turning five year old that I intend to keep for a while, and I’ll probably start him in the A/O after FL (they have a nice 3’3 division down here, and I’ll introduce the 3’6 somewhere a bit easier).
Unless the horse is doing well in some division, and making some effort to earn his keep, I would find four years an excessive amount of time to put into the actual training of anything. Perfecting and fine tuning for that long, sure, as that’s an on-going process, but just to get them to the ring, too long, and a waste of effort and money.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

[Black_Market_Radio]

Flash, I don’t think THAT is what makes you odd

Here are the Devilpups!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87
I un-clog my nose at you, you brightly coloured, mealy-templed, cranberry-smelling, electric donkey-bottom biter!’
TTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHBBBBBBB!!!

[ALR]

Ok I think we are getting off the subject a little here. We all have our own opinion on what is right and what is wrong with the drug issue and that never gets anywhere wasn’t this thread started to get the lastest gossip? who’s in and who’s out and why? Come on who can come up with an updated “BLACK LIST”?? That’s what I’m waiting for anyway!

[Dakotawyatt]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEPEnterprises:
I am really disappointed to see Todd Minikus on this list. He is one of the riders I have really admired. He and Oh Star are just incredible to watch.

I don’t know the details of his particular suspension, but I hope it was for something like “medications messed up” rather than “use of performance enhancing drugs to win at any cost”

/sigh

---

LondonHannahKirsche
Gryphon Bay & foal on the WAY!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe this is the incident in question.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=7076024331&m=80160978

Originally, Todd’s name and Oh Star were named in this thread. Guess it’s not rumor now, huh?

~Jenny~

“The daughter who won’t lift a finger in the house is the same child who cycles madly off in the pouring rain to spend all morning mucking out a stable.” (Samantha Armstrong)

[Sam_Iam]

Not sure who, but someone made reference to higher penalties on second/third violations. How many violations do you have to get before you are booted out for life? Please tell me that you would eventually get kicked out for life.

Midge, that story you posted about the junior hunter made my stomach turn. That is absolutely horrifying!!! Couldn’t someone have pulled a steward over to see that poor horse while it was on the ground? What exactly does calcium do to a horse, and how in the world was the horse in question able to jog in the afternoon after experiencing such a reaction in the morning? I’m disgusted and speechless.

[CBoylen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
OK, how is spending $1250 a month in board logical? I think my situation is more normal than yours because my board has always been in the neighborhood of $300-400 a month.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It’s not more normal in the situations being discussed. You’re discussing so-called BNTs. Therefore, your situation is not a normal one in these cases. That was the entire point.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

[DMK]

Two Toofs, it’s not that I don’t exactly believe you, it’s just that I don’t really know you or how close you are to racing, whereas I know these folks, and know the degree and history of involvement in all aspects of the industry.

You could very well be right, but I have no way of determining that. And no, I don’t believe we were talking the EPO issue as that had been on the table for a while as you pointed out…

But did I get specifics? Nah! Good gossip and great wine was flowing freely!

“I used to care, but things have changed…” Bob Dylan

[CBoylen]

CC = the Capital Challenge
Midge, I believe the vet you are referring to lives on grounds during that show, and that is why he was available at an early hour. I also am almost certain that the Ca injection was done by the trainer.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

[AHC]

Findeight, I agree. And my trainer is one of the good ones who works with the vet to coordinate care of the horses in the barn. He’s also good about informing his clients who want to be involved (not all do) about health issues, treatment options, etc.

I’m glad he’s comfortable giving IV shots. That means if there’s a minor health issue that he discusses with the vet on the phone, he can start the treatment right away. Also saves me the cost of a barn call from our extremely good but very expensive vet. Further, if my horse colics in the middle of the night, trainer can give banamine right away.

[becca_s_boys]

Laurie and Chanda are absolutely correct.

[El_Grande_Stimpendo]

DD - if theres anything to tell we’ll all find out when the list is made public.

[dab]

LEP… – I thought Flash was trying to point out that some of us start our not-so-calm greenies in the pre-adults – I’m not a highly skilled amateur – My mare is far from calm, but she’s got great form over fences – Granted, it’s difficult to show that at 2’6", but I’m better prepared to deal with a greenie moment if I’m not concerned about fence height – Should a greenie owned and ridden by an ‘average’ amateur be pinned lower than the babysitter who adds strides in pre-adults? – Different judges have different opinions on this one – I really don’t care as long as we have a good trip –

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dinah-do:
So = what do you think of a vet giving long term tranq at the owners request and not telling the trainer???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I certainly wouldn’t want to be in the DVM’s shoes should the trainer have a wreck with the horse and get injured.
Liability aside, it’s a bit slimy. Even though it’s strictly according to vet-client-patient confidentiality guidelines.

Perhaps the wisest course is to eschew administration of long term tranquilizer to horses not on extended layup, nu?

Unashamed member of the Arab clique…just settin’ on the Group W bench.

[Richmond]

To help make them Q U I E T …sssh!

[DMK]

One would hope that isn’t true, as I have yet to meet the person who thinks he should stick around. Pretty much everyone thinks it ought to be the end of the road for this person, so to speak…

But I would question the “rat out” idea if for no other reason than this gets to be a whole lot like hearsay. If there is no positive test then how do we know he is telling the truth? And if there is a positive test, what value does he bring to the table? Unless he was there, giving the stuff to the horse in question at the behest of the trainer (and that is highly unlikely), then it really is just unconfirmable hearsay. If that is all the USEF needs, then they can strike a deal with a far more “redeemable” sort, and give this guy the boot.

“I used to care, but things have changed…” Bob Dylan

[sesroh]

I have to agree with C. Boylen about changing the rules.

I have (finally) purchased a nice horse that is VERY quiet. He does not need to be longed, does not need to be drugged, he needs minimal schooling, he does go around quietly in the ring. I am basically kicking him to the jumps. It took a LONG time to find this horse. (In fact, I had settled on a very quiet greenie before this one came along because I had been looking for a while and couldn’t find what I wanted. Then this guy came along and I decided to buy even though I had just purchased my new horse!) My horse isn’t a world beater, but he is a nice horse that can get the job done and win some ribbons without drugs, longing etc.

It’s a fine line. Do you change the standard and punish those horses who naturally fit this ideal (and they do exist), or punish horses whose riders have spent a LONG time getting their horses to this point (not through drugging or LTD, but those who have spent years showing and training their horses to get them comfortable and quiet enough in the show ring)? And what about the breeders who are working hard to produce this kind of horse, should we dismiss them? Is it right to change the standard because too many people don’t own the natural born hunter or because people who don’t own the natural don’t want to put in the time and effort to get their horses to this point? I do understand this would be for the well being of the horses, but what does it do for the well being of the sport? The cheaters are still going to come out on top and win because now we’ve changed the standard to accomodate them. And those playing by the rules who have purchased a very quiet animal that doesn’t need drugs to go in the ring, those who have spent time and money getting their horse quiet enough through hard work, and those breeding these ideal hunter types are all punished. I don’t think there is a good answer here.

[Portia]

Barnie, as Janet said, that’s the reason why a few years ago they came up with the category of “coach.” Pros who were just meeting the students at shows were not signing the entry forms because they didn’t want the presumed liability, but if they didn’t sign the entry forms, they weren’t covered by the liability waiver required by USA Eq’s insurance carrier. So, they came up with coach, which covers the insurance/liability issues but does not carry the same presumption of care and custody of the horse as does the trainer designation.

However, signing as coach instead of trainer doesn’t get someone off the hook if it turns out they did have care and custody of the horse, or did take it out behind the barn before the class started.

Dana, that’s one reason why the new federation is still incorporated in New York and provides that New York law applies to all disputes over the rules and memberships – because the AHSA/USA Eq has built up a body of law over time finding that the suspension rules are rational, legal, and enforceable.

Providing for the suspension of the horses as well as the individuals increases the punishment and the deterrent effect of a suspension. Otherwise, whoever was suspended could just “lease out” his/her horses for the duration of the suspension, and the horses keep winning points and making money for the suspended person.

In your scenario, where an innocent lessee has a leased horse that gets suspended along with its owner, then that person may well have a claim to bring – but it would be against the suspended owner/trainer, not against USA Eq and now USEF.