barnie, what a coincidence that the vets misjudged the time frame for a drug on several horses that colicked (or whatever) around the same time…
I would imagine that if you showed up with your itemized vet bill showing a colic emergency and what drugs were given on what date, and this was consistent with the test results, the punishment would have been pretty light (as poltroon said).
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hopeful Hunter:
OK…since it’s gotten colder here again and the flames won’t feel so hot 
I’ll go ahead and say this:
I’m sorry, but the issue of drugging or not drugging NOT for any therapeutic purpose using legal, known, carefully chosen meds but simply to artificially enhance performance or rideability IS BLACK AND WHITE.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You go there Hopeful! And you haven’t even touched on the whole issue of whether it’s right to keep an old schoolie going with a few butes a day “to keep him comfortable” while continuing to pound whatever was hurting enough to earn them the bute in the first place.
I continue to be astounded at the glib justification of over medicating horses that this thread has produced. If your horse doesn’t tolerate living in a 10X10 for weeks on end without drugs to calm him down and drugs to keep him from getting stiff and drugs to keep him sound enough to jog HE IS NOT DOING WHAT HE SHOULD BE DOING. No matter how much his “trainer” wants to keep the owner happy with bits of ribbon. There’s good horsemanship, and there’s selling out.
madeline
There IS a place for the really good amateur rider - the medal class. Judges don’t penalize a difficult horse when it is well ridden.
It’s sad when the hunter divison has 20+ entries and the medal barely fills. maybe if we made the adult eq a division in itself, with Zone points (in addition for the quest to qualify for finals) there would be more interest in it? You most certainly see more challenging courses.
ACtually, drugging in Ireland, while NOT legal, is pretty common - HOWEVER - it tends to be “herbal” stuff with Valerian Root (which, unbeknownst to many, can backfire), tryptothane, B vitamins - and usually for the youngsters. I am sure horses go on Bute, but NOT to the extent they do in the US - (bute costs $2.00 per gram and you HAVE to buy it from your vet!!)
I was astonished by the amount of herbals I saw openly outside horses’ doors at Dublin this year - and, frankly it was v ery depressing. Supposedly, THEY drug test, but the testing and the results are NOT open for public scrutiny. Slap on the wrist is about it.
However, in the FEI classes, they are rigorous - both here and in the rest of Europe. The Irish Young Rider Team (SJ) was suspended for drugging their horses last year during the SJ Europeans (YR)… Baaaadddd coach - who told the kids it was OK and would make their horses go better!!! 
I WOULD rather see herbals than MANY of the US concoctions I have know!!
AND IF you DO buy a horse in Europe, DO get it drug tested - I would even recommend sending the sample to a good US lab for analysis!
It’s OUT! Linda Allen’s 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! 
Absolutely, it SHOULD come from the rider, or the trainer. A sensible schedule that allows for time off should be planned out each year.
BUT, the reality that I see now, as opposed to 25 years ago, is that there are MORE shows to go to, MORE year end finals, not less, MORE exhibitors to fill these shows, and MORE trainers/barns to pick up the money to be made. So, in dealing with the reality of the situation, not the perfect world that we all wish for, you can do the best you can for your own horse/life, and allow the trainers/owners who INSIST on attending a horse show every week of the year, to have the tools to at least make the horses comfortable.
And, unfortunately, as I said before, rest doesn’t deal with the horse that stays just a little too fresh for the judges who won’t allow a little play on the corners, or a head shake when a hold is taken. Until the performances are allowed to have a little spice and brilliance, the choices are hours on the lunge line or “something” to deaden them. I don’t like either choice, but know which one I would prefer.
Laurie
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kitty:
But then the owner/trainer still profits from the sale of the horse, right? And if the reason for the suspension was use of prohibited substances, and the horse wouldn’t have performed as well without the help, then there’s an even bigger profit due to cheating.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Barney wasn’t suspended for prohibitted substances. 
Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
Exactly batgirl. Also, if the adult eq class did ever take off and expand into a division (unlikely, IMO, but IF), you could probably time with a stopwatch how quickly the prices would go up on those eq horses that aren’t quite good enough to be top junior finals mounts.
Some of the hard hitting schemes for drug testing, such as pulling and banking, retroactive testing etc sound great.
As a lowly rider who shows a few times a year ( and 100% drug free) I resent that I would have to foot the bill to police people who have turned this hobby / sport into an industrial business.
I say put far more teeth into a positive test with higher $$$ and time off.
As a former member of the veterinary community I dispise that there are those supporting this. However it can be any fool with access to drug stocks at a hospital who can get hold of many ( but not all) of these supplies.
The bottom line is that owners have to grow a spine and some starch and take the time to learn ON THEIR OWN ( what a concept, drop the spoon feeding) about horses, horsemanship and the truth about training and progression.
_\]
– * > hoopoe
The ancient Greeks did not write obituaries. They only wanted to know if you had a passion.
I see a name on the list of a BNT who just got a vacation that ‘helped’ me with a green horse last spring. I don’t medicate my horse and said BNT told me to get rid of horse as horse was unsuitable. BNT’s green horses were going around so nice while mine was still silly. As I valued that person’s opinion I was doubting my horse and her potential as a future adult hunter for me. Now, less than a year later, with good solid training from the wonderful local trainers I have had the privelege to work with, the horse is coming along beatifully and BNT is busted for illegal medicating! Maybe there is some justice after all…
[This message was edited by Tallyrand on Jan. 01, 2004 at 08:25 AM.]
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by magnolia:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>the blah A/A hunter who barely makes it over the jump because it’s so dull beating the one who’s a better jumper and mover but may have a little playful head toss or tail swish in the corner. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Does that REALLY happen? Or is it an exagaration? (sp?) No wonder so many people gripe about judging!
The witchy witch witch of south central NC.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, many times it does… 
Boy do I love being a “backyard” rider right now…new horse I probably will never show him, just let him finish his years of life quietly, he had a crazy earlier life…
I don’t think I could handle all these politics, I’d be puking in a porta potty somewhere…
“We’ll raise up our glasses against evil forces, singing Whiskey for my men, beer for my horses.” --some country song 
You know what I’d like to see? I want to see the drug testers select a children’s hunter class in Florida and TEST EVERY HORSE. The trainers who saw what was up and scratched could be presumed guilty, and would have to explain their action to the parents involved…
More than anything else, this would expose the scope of the problem, and illuminate how many of the smallest and least able children are being put at risk by riding dopers.
madeline
horsepop: “Are they that good of a trainer to start with?”
Now there’s a loaded question. It depends on how you define “good.”
The sad thing about this whole business is, indeed, that “good” often has nothing to do with teaching ability, but rather the ability to find and maintain (through medication, if necessary) the winning horse, regardless of the rider.
I mean, if you think about it, if the sport were different, what would it matter if horse X was off today? Put her on horse Y and carry on.
But if she can’t RIDE horse Y (and why can’t she, one wonders?), then one becomes desparate–and that is, IMO, the very best word to describe the situation–to use horse x. Horse x cannot be given time off, reschooled, sorted out so he can be comfortable. Giving horse x what he really needs is money out instead of money in. Propping up horse x anyway possible is a good investment. It’s WORTH THE RISKS!
(Of course, this only applies to those who intentionally break the rules involving medication.)
Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Sportponies_Unlimited_stallions.html
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LimoWrek:
Yep, its vacation time… And i’m going to enjoy the time off personally 
Limo Wrek.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In case you don’t know what Farfel was reffering to, I believe it would be THIS qoute!
Devilpups
We are now the Knights Who Say ‘Ecky- ecky- ecky- ecky- pikang- zoop- boing- goodem- zoo- owli- zhiv’
Yep, I used it a grand total of 2 times. It was in 2001, the pollen was so bad you could see it blowing through the air. The rest of the time I use a stocking or vicks, or just dealt with a few head tosses and didn’t get a ribbon.
[This message was edited by Flash44 on Dec. 31, 2003 at 12:00 PM.]
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elizabeth:
Are you calling Buster SHORT?
Dude, I’d have to lunge his happy self for a long freakin’ time to get him to measure. . . .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Are we speaking from the vantage point of my 17’2 hand TB, or from, let’s say, Frodo’s perspective? 
But if you would like to lunge him for a while, I have some very good trainer recommendations…
“I used to care, but things have changed…” Bob Dylan
I’ve been following this thread with a great deal of interest and, even after being around horses for 44 years, I’ve learned a lot - thanks to all for that. What I haven’t read on this board are any concrete solutions. I’d like to give it a shot.
Drugs. In the war on illegal drugs, law enforcement doesn’t target the users, they target the suppliers and distributors. In our world, that means the vets. When I need a tranquilizer to clip a horse, my vet gives me one dose. What do I need bottles of reserprine or a volume of any other illegal drug? The USEF needs to team up with the American Veterinary Association on two fronts: 1 - to education vets on what is illegal and what is not. And, more importantly, to report vets who abuse their prescribing of these illegal drugs, asking the AVA to begin a program of censure. If the source is cut off, the amount of drugs out there dwindle. AVA is more likely to develop and enforce a censure program than USEF, because they are a medical society.
Go outside the USEF and use our very liberal legal system. If my horse were being consistenly beaten by a drugged horse, my horses value in resale or breeding would be diminished. That has a concrete financial effect. And, if an old lady can win $87 million from McDonalds over a hot cup of coffee, I say I can sue one of the BNT’s for enough money to make their lives a misery. And, I can find a lawyer to take the case pro bono or for a %. Once case law is established, any trainer who drugs a horse and gets caught can be financial toast. The USEF cannot and never will establish sufficient fines to deter drug use - it’s a “volunteer driven” organization and those volunteers will never let it happen.
Do work with the USEF to develop local educational programs at horse shows on what are legal and illegal methods, theraputic drug limits and behaviors.
Submit a rule change form to USEF asking them to revise their drug testing policy to test every ribbon winner and then randomly test from those samples. And, follow up. If you have the time and the interest, volunteer to serve on a USEF committee or a committee on your state association level.
That’s my two cents. I am personally going to volunteer to serve on a VHSA committee and start at the grass roots.
The answer is yes. Some of the suspensions are for four months starting 11/01 and other are for three months beginning 12/1. Should make FL interesting, don’t you think?
Yep, nothing like a little spin doctoring to make a suspension look like a good thing.
I too was going to stay out of this one since I’ve been witness to questionable medication practices at a previous show barn. I, like most of the others, only hope that this is a long overdue “wake-up” call to our industry.
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