THE suspension list

[Sparky22]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
The fact is the rule says anywhere on the show grounds. They have when been here to take samples frequently taken my school horses that were not even entered in the show. But, any horse on my farm is fair game.

They have been here and taken samples from horses on the trailers not entered in the show. Why should Florida be different than Snowbird?

Battle Scarred Veteran<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They are not stabled on the show grounds

Only I have to edit when the post is one sentence long

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I would sooner fail than not be among the greatest
– John Keats

[SydneyS]

Why do people resent paying vets top dollar to treat their horses? I think it’s money well spent to have my vet treat/administer or just consult on my horses’ welfare. HE went to vet school and paid through the nose in time and money to become responsible for my equine friends. True, there are bad apples in every bunch, but most vets are GOOD people. I love my vet; he doesn’t make 1/2 the money he deserves!!!

BTW, most vets don’t live fancy lifestyles, unlike some of the top trainers. Why is that?

[lauriep]

And one more small group, LH and flsgordon, people that live a very long way form their trainer but ride with them because they are the best.

When I worked for Joe and Conrad, none of the full board horses had owners that lived nearby. One was in HI (or at Yale, at school), one was in NY, the Butlers were in MN, LH was in NC. These customers almost always met us at the shows, only occasionally coming to the farm for a few days to fine tune.

The same was true when I worked for RJ, Joanie to a lesser extent and Frances.

Laurie

[Flash44]

L Allen, Beezer and magnolia have very good points, and I am firmly in that camp.

[DMK]

Two Toofs - I would say one of us read it out of context! My original quote “They cut straight to the hard stuff” referred to the referenced use of equipoise, not the rules. I have long been a fan of racing’s approach to rules (explained in excruciating detail in the very next paragraph).

But I can see that my “hard stuff” quote didn’t make it explicitly clear I was talking about equipoise. Thus the reason my jaw dropped to the floor when I read your reply…

Yea, bute certainly has issues associated with ulcers and liver damage, but it isn’t even in the same ballpark as equipoise/winstrol. As far as I am concerned, that is one drug that they would do well to ban from racing and showing.

As for the idea that people seem to think race horses need to detox they are so drugged up, I think you need to take that with a grain of salt. Every discipline has tons of misconceptions associated with it. I haven’t noticed where racing is any worse than the next discipline.

“I used to care, but things have changed…” Bob Dylan

[sopha]

I think knowing the answer to the Valerie Brodsky quiz is proof that I have been around for a looong time!

I survived the last paper CPA exam!

[Peggy]

Good point Chanda about the average poster here being more knowledgeable and wanting to know more than the average BNT client.

And I guess that’s part of the reason why my horses have never shown on anything stronger than bute. I really don’t want to show a horse that’s a “slave” by virtue of “preparation” as one of my friends referred to her horse at a medal finals. I’ve ridden aced horses coming back from lay-ups and this is NOT the feeling I would want cantering down to a fence (or trotting down the center line). My dad is a psychiatrist (admitedly one who is conservative with respect to drugs) and he said that prolixin was not something he would give to an horse that he cared about or one that was ridden by someone he cared about.

IMHO if people show more weekends than not and judges reward that lopey-dopey/slave look, there are going to be horses that “need” drugs. Maybe we need to consider if what we’re asking of the horses is reasonable and fair. As long as it’s a business, people are making money, and the shows are there, people are going to show and seek the latest, greatest, undetectable wonder drug.

BTW, my choice (and financial reality) is that I don’t show at that level.

[War_Admiral]

I’m mostly just lurking on this thread nowadays, to see where y’all are going to take it - it’s gone some interesting places, that’s for sure!

But I wanted to invite any of you so inclined to c’mon over to Off Course (“Open Letter to David O’Connor” thread) and make use of the list of Hearings/D&M Committee e-mail addresses so kindly compiled by Weatherford - just in case you happen to feel that USEF is not doing all it could.

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Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse.

[Tiramit]

I’m trying to think of all the shows (nation-wide) that offer handy hunter classes. What’s the fence height offered and how many entries are in the typical class?

What could be nice is to add a retro division for all the riders who want to ride their more alert horses over fun courses. If that catches on, perhaps that alone could change some of the standars?

…
“Whether you think you can or think you can’t - you are right.” -Henry Ford

[barngirl73]

Ok having read all these post and showing a lot in the adults and the a/o’s I have one really good question to throw out to all of you. As long as were testing horses how about the trainers and the grooms? I mean if were gonna clean things up let’s do it all the way around! I’m not saying that I’m against or for medication but I honestly think there is a huge problem with some trainers and grooms. The answer to all questions here is to not allow any kind of medication. That way all showing would be on a even playing field. Do I think that’s right, no but you will always have someone that wants to “bend” the rules. I have not been witness to this so called drugging of horses but I have been witness to drugging of trainers and grooms. Am I off the wall here? I figure if were going to clean house let’s really clean house!

[woudn_tYOUliketoknow]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:
All the holier-than-thou’s on this thread need to get a clue. If your vet (or animal communicator or whatever) said ‘I’ve found a way for your horse to be more comfortable doing his job’ you’d probably nominate yourselves for a noble prize and tell everyone about it on the internet. Ditto for your grandmother’s arthritis pills and the stuff you give your dog if you can figure out a way for insurance to pay the $. Why’s it different with a horse?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yay, I like you.

[mwalshe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> There IS a place for the really good amateur rider - the medal class. Judges don’t penalize a difficult horse when it is well ridden. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would LOVE to see the eq division become the amateur competition of choice. And see all the 2’6" and 2’9" hunters be done away with.

Eq is a much more level playing field, it rewards those who can trult ride and train and it is more equitable horse-price wise. You can train most anything to be adecent eq mount if you put in the time and effort. It’s more of a sport.

Then the hutners could go back to what they should be: a showcase for truly exceptional horses, ridden by experienced riders who can show them off to advantage.

[JustJump]

<<I for one am in full support of testing EVERY WINNER, EVERY TIME. >>

It’s not even necessary to run the tests every time. Although it might be cost prohibitive to run a $350 test for each and every sample taken, it wouldn’t be prohibitive to draw the samples from the winners, and perform random tests on these. It would sure go a long way towards increasing the perceived risk of being caught to the point where one couldn’t count on playing the odds (to use that word again…) successfully.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:
Trainers giving shots need to realize this…

In a court of law they are “practicing medicine without a license”…

THAT was proven in a case just recently …giving IV injections constitues “practicing medicine”…if we inject a perscription medicine, we are indeed practicing medicine by defination…

Open us up to A LOT of legal issues…
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

By chance, do you think they are practicing less medicine if they give the medicine via pill?

And as medicine progresses, this becomes a much greyer area. Leaving behind for a moment the fact that animals are livestock and people are not, there are an ever increasing amount of self administered injectables available for people. Note that word “self administered”…

Obviously doctors give people self injectable and oral meds day in and day out for them to administer to themselves. As it turns out, pharmacy companies make former prescription drugs OTC and it turns out the threshold for OTC status is far more market driven than safety oriented. Is it lost on anyone that all of the legal NSAIDS that are common to people and horses are OTC for people??? And vets give owners and other people responsible for owner’s horses injectable and oral drugs every day of the week, and it is not an issue. What is an issue is giving that drug outside of the vet’s therapeutic recommendations (which may be quite broad - refer to that bottle of bute on hand at home for Exhibit A).

“I used to care, but things have changed…” Bob Dylan

[Flash44]

So I can have my horse rub snot all over my trainer just before I go into the ring and he will be fine?

[PatsyStone]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by madeline:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ash:
sesroh- I see what you are saying but the class is called hunters. Why should brilliance be penalized? Look at the show hunters from the 60’s and 70’s. They are NOTHING like the show hunters of today. They were much more like a horse you would see in the hunt field (as many of them did both). There is an EXAGERATED difference between a show hunter of today and a real hunter. Like Ghazzu said, the standard has already been changed. Maybe it is time to start changing it back. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that the standard has changed, but not in the some of the ways you suggest. We showed our field hunters at Devon and the indoors. But getting them ready involved keeping them in the barn more so they would show some spark! It used to be that the hunters were supposed to make what they were doing look easy. The top of the heap, except for the Team horses, were the working and conformation hunters. Who really did jump 4’6" out of their in-and -outs in stake and Corinthian classes.

Somehow “perfect huter form” has become corrupted into radical knee snatching, with riders sprawled out on their horses’ necks as if they were jumping 5’. (Except that the good jumper riders don’t really do that either.)

This is probably as a result of two different trends:First, the proliferation of 2’6" and 3’ classes for hunters. These create a permanent home for those horses who cannot actually get up in the air easily, and I’m sure that the judges, trainers and riders have all gotten accustomed to this “look”. As I see it, the “perfect hunter look” is now that of a horse struggling to get into the air, and a rider trying to look as if the horse has so much jump that he/she can hardly stay with him.

The second contributing factor to this transmogrification is the proliferation of lower level jumper classes. Until the early '60’s there was just one division of jumpers: Open. Sure, there was an occasional junior jumper class, but never a whole division. There were green jumpers for a few years, but now there are Opens, intermediates, prelims high and low, jr./ams high and low, schooling, training, childrens & adults high and low, hopefuls. There are probably more that I’ve forgotten.

The whole concept of instant gratification and objective scoring make these divisions very attractive to those with horses who can get in the air easily, and for whom accomplishing the task is more valued than form. So those horses who would have normally floated around hunter rings like it was nothin’, are now in the jumper rings where politics is not a player, and neither is waiting around to see whether the judge ( who may or may not have sold your trainer 6 big$ horses) likes the way your horse went.

The talented horses who would have made up the ranks of the working hunters are now in the junior/amateur jumpers.

Whose fault is that? I don’t know, but I’m also not sure that it’s a bad thing for riding and showing in the US.

madeline<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even if that’s the way things were, it isn’t how they are now. If you want to win NOW you have to do what the norms are now.

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You only work in a shop, you know. You can drop the attitude.

[J_Turner]

Marion, expliquez, s’il vous plait! Even if some of us don’t have the money to show on the A circuit, we are intelligent, knowledgeable horse people. How can it NEVER be their fault?

My Photo Albums

“When I bestride him, I soar, I am a hawk: he trots the air; the earth sings when he touches it; the basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes.”
– Shakespeare, Henry V

[buryinghill1]

Even when you’re dead you can still be on the suspended list…
I LOVE YOU…CELLULAR FARM, INC. 08/01/98 –

[Weatherford]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The D&M testing program grew out of Sallie Sexton standing up at a convention decades ago and challenging people to put some teeth in the existing rules. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny you should mention Sally Sexton - as SHE IS THE ONE who STARTED teh campaign to CHANGE the way HUNTERS were being judged!! I very clearly remember reading an op-ed in the COTH before she died where she talked about it! Actually, it was reading that that sent me off to watch hunters, and seriously consider HOW we should go about change.

Someone mentioned the CHildren’s Hunter who was not a good mover, but spectacular jumper - well, HE would probably do BETTER under this system, as it first and foremost rewards the good jump! After all, isn’t that what we WANT in our hunters? Certainly is in our field hunters (if we are riding first flight!) My grandfather used to go down to VA to buy his hunters, and he criteria was, “Can it jump that gate?” If it could, he’d take it home!

What I have proposed it is just that - a proposition for discussion. How can we solve this problem of judging criteria and drugging??

My challenge to those who say, “NO” flatly to my suggestion is, “How would YOU do it?”

(Should I make this a new thread?)

It’s OUT! Linda Allen’s 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!!

[J_Turner]

Thank you Old A/O. My sentiments, exactly. I will back that up with a personal thought. My old horse has been Horse of the Year in the Children’s or Adult Hunters in Connecticut H/J and NEHC several times. He has a very nice jump, rhythm, and attitude, but is a crap mover. Is he the fanciest horse in New England? Not by a longshot. He can get low ribbons (and has) at the biggest A shows, but unless the fanciest horse makes a mistake will not move into the primary color ribbons. How did he get these awards? Campaigning.

My Photo Albums

“When I bestride him, I soar, I am a hawk: he trots the air; the earth sings when he touches it; the basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes.”
– Shakespeare, Henry V