who knows what some of these people are on the list for but the easiest way is not to pay your show bill. 
INSTANT GRATIFICATION
This is a social problem within the community of horse people that is what needs to be addressed. Why have we changed from people who were accustomed to the challenges of winning out and moving up to a community that is so static winning has become the reason for the competition and not the reward of the hard work and skill.
THE QUICK FIX
As horse people we had a system where you did Maiden Classes and when you won your blue ribbon you moved up so you could lose again until you had three blue ribbons etc. Rejection, disappointment and hard work were the by-products of this sport that made the children strong and healthy and able to cope with the real world when they became the adults in charge.
Not having time, being too busy but wanting the rewards anyway have led us down this slippery slope because we’ve forgotten why we all do this.
OK! there have been some excellent ideas and many suggestions out here in 48 pages of horror that such is happening. Can we get past the excuses and alibis to the point where someone will actually propose a Rule Change and submit it to the Drugs and Medication Committee to see if it’s feasible.
Perhaps we all need more financial information about the costs and then decide if out moral principles are still as strong when it gets into OUR pocketbook. Don’t you think it’s time that we all started realize that the THEY is really US.
Battle Scarred Veteran
I see your point, Portia - but let’s face it - under an “average of points” scenario there would still be plenty-enough point chasing to keep the show managers happy. Because let’s face it - while it miiiiight… theoreticalleeeeeee… be possible for a horse to go to only 4 big shows, be undefeated at all 4, and end up HOTY, in the real world there are very very few horses around at any given time which could actually pull that off. And it would still leave the rest of us duking it out for reserve.
For me personally, in my older amateur years - the thought of only having to do a few shows a year has a great deal of appeal! (Because I’m old, fat, and lazy, that’s why! And it’s why I switched to carriage driving!) 
EDIT: And BTW guys - enough of the “vested interests” will be suspended that it miiiight, theoreticalleeeee, be possible to push the averages thing thru at the Annual Meeting!
“No horse with cart horse blood inside three crosses can stand an extreme test against horses bred for Epsom Downs and the Metairie Course…”
–Marguerite Bayliss, The Bolinvars
[This message was edited by War Admiral on Nov. 06, 2003 at 01:23 PM.]
I thought that Valerian was illegal. Didn’t they decide that a few years ago?
So has anyone seen any of the suspended folks barns down in FLA? This should make for an interesting winter circuit.
buying or selling horses…i would think any bnt would love to have just a fixed commission…when they are in the market they may get 10 tapes a wk go see 2 or 3 horses …this all adds to the cost…to find the horse he might look at 100…if you dont want to pay dont ask him to look …at the big shows when you went back to the motel he is looking at that special horse that some one shipped in from MA…what im saying they earn it …
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
Given a choice, I think I would stick with bute!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Injectable bute???
madeline
How would this “average score” thing work? Presumably, you’d have to have some sort of minimum. Otherwise, if you got champion at your first show, you could just sit out the rest of the season with a great average score!
“Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.” – Thomas A. Edison
“Most owners are not involved, nor should be involved (due to lack of knowledge) in the medication or preparation of their horse. They trust their chosen trainer to handle their animal appropriately. I assume you aren’t an auto mechanic, do you go down into the pit when you take your car for an oil change?”
Just a quick comment … Horses aren’t cars, they are living breathing creatures who can experience mental physical and emotional pain. Regardless of how I feel about medicating I believe it is the responsabilitry of all horse owners to make it thier business to know if thier horse is being neglected , abused , or mistreated by anyone including thier trainer. The better comparison would be , would your want to know if your child were being medicated by your Nanny . JMHO
Anyone know why it’s taking so long to release additional names? I know that at least two other people have had their hearing at least three weeks ago now, yet they are still not on the list.
Friends don’t let friends ride junk!
Sandstone, you stated that it was none of their faults.
I do big shows. I have horses in Florida for the season. I’ve been involved for more than 30 years…
I find the suspension list troubling. When BNTs have multiple horses coming up, there is a problem. Many positives are for somewhat benign reasons, i.e. a supplement used incorrectly. However, BNTs are responsible for the horses in their charge, and for knowing the medication rules, and for making sure all of their charges are clean. Even if it was a mistake, BNT SHOULD have known the risks of what they were feeding.
And of course, many on the list were not innocent mistakes. 
Well, maybe that’s the problem Chanda. Maybe they SHOULD know the difference…
Here are the Devilpups!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87
I un-clog my nose at you, you brightly coloured, mealy-templed, cranberry-smelling, electric donkey-bottom biter!’
TTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHBBBBBBB!!!
Folks seem to assuming that all of these suspensions have something to do with forbidden substances/failure to report.
Unless somebody has received an new issue of Equestrian magazine that includes the reasons why the named people were suspended, all we know now is the names on the list posted on the USA Eq/USEF website.
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But (not unusually) I stray from my point. Which is that I think people who refuse to play by the rules deserve to have their toys taken away. Preferably, for a very long time. And we need to figure out a way to make that happen. Maybe we need an independent regulatory commission?? Or would that just make matters worse? Let’s brainstorm here, folks.
I certainly don’t want to see the problem get SO bad that it becomes a national scandal, the government moves in, and the industry gets locked down so tight that an owner or a trainer gets suspended for a year for even being in possession of a syringe. (Ask the Standardbred racing community whether I’m exaggerating about that.) It could happen.
In order to avoid such a scenario, owners and trainers alike must act more responsibly toward their horses. And if they won’t do it voluntarily, then I think some drug rules with teeth and some suspensions with even bigger teeth are quite definitely in order. And I most certainly would not be averse, either, to suspensions and fines for show management companies that refuse to cooperate with the spirit as well as the letter of the law.
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I am actually reakky interested in what the solution might be also. As it stands now, at least during the winter circuit suspended trainers seem to go right on training and selling horses. Granted they cannot be trainer of record, show the horses themselves, and (correct me if I’m wrong) cannot be on the show grounds. But this has proven to be of little handicap to those who set up barns just off show grounds and continue on with business. At places such as WEF this is extremely easy because they are simply living among the rest of the BNTs in places like Grand Prix village. So if what should be a huge penaltiy by being suspended in on of the busiest times of year becomes a slap on the wrist and a “don’t do that” what do we do?
One might naturally think that you might want to increase the penalty for repeat offenders. So say we put a new rule into effect that at x number of drug rule infractions over y years you have increasing lengths of suspension to where ultimately repeat offenders are suspended for life. Would this help? How many horses have these trainers druged before they got caught this time? Are they likely to get caught again? Even if they do get suspended for life didn’t we just prove that they still go on with business as a shadow?
This brings me back to what many people have touched on in this thread. Maybe we need to take a hard look at our judging practices and what we are pinning. As it stands now if the deadhead horses continue winning we are simply reinforcing the trainer’s behavior of what they do to get that horse to be as a deadhead. This may be LTD, drugging, etc. We talk of horses being stalled 24/7 on the road. While this is true at many shows many of the horses at WEF have turnout (though by no means all of the horses). We found out long ago that our horses cannot show without turnout and even during WEF and HITS we would always have a paddock and turnout the horses (some even overnight). Maybe we should look at showground requirements and start requiring more (and learger in my opinion) paddocks.
Does any of this suggest that these trainers would stop using illegal substances on their horses. Not in my opinion, but maybe it would help some of the horses be horses while on the road. I don’t have the solution does anyone else?
BTW, when are we expecting the list to be posted online?
~ hunt_jump ~
http://home.cfl.rr.com/huntjump
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flshgordon:
But…why does riding/showing hunters mean you have to give up control of your partner to someone else?? I am in complete control of my horses at all times even though I have a trainer. I know what they eat, I’m responsible for the farrier, vet and medicines/wound care. Even at shows, I choose to feed my own horses when I can, etc. My trainer doesn’t school my horse for me either. It’s all up to me with her help. Of course my reasoning is that if I want to get the showing in on the budget I have (with 3 horses) I have to do a lot of the work myself–makes it just that much more rewarding. I don’t see anything wrong with this at all. Might be an option for you 
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I am in the same situation as you are flshgordon. But we are in the minority. Many ammies work at 40 - 60 (or more) hour per week jobs and do not have time to care for their horses. They need these jobs to afford the horse and a show budget. They must have a situation where their horses are kept by a trainer and schooled at shows duing the week by the trainer, so that when they come in to ride on the weekend, they horse is ready for them.
When I was a practicing attorney, I was in this situation, so I completely understand these needs.
The other very large group are juniors who are (mostly) in school and cannot spend all week at horse shows. They also need the horse cared for and ridden during the week until they come in Friday night to show on Sat/Sun.
I would say that ammies like us are in the VAST minority of people attending multi day shows. Probably 80% or more need trainers to care for and prepare their horses for them, or else they would not be able to show at all. Another 10 - 15% just plain prefer to have their horses under a trainers care and control at shows.
That means that 5% of people attending multi-day shows on a regular basis both enjoy and are able to be at the show full time, so that they can maintain total control over their own horses.
Drug testing at racetracks is not comparable to horse shows. Racetracks are accountable to taxpayers, bettors and their state gambling commissions. Having experience in the racing commission I can tell you how different is racing and showing accountability.
If I decide to scratch my horse from a USEF competition, I don’t really need to explain myself. I may scratch or simply not show up for an event. At the track I’ll need a very good reason to not run an entered horse. Few trainers mess with a track steward, or the racing commission.
The cost of testing is covered by betting and track admissions. It costs almost nothing to stable, train, or run at most tracks. It is VERY costly to lose your license.
[This message was edited by buryinghill1 on Dec. 17, 2003 at 09:17 AM.]
Sam Iam, no worry about being flamed for being perfect, none of us are. Izabella and Silver Bells said it the best, there will always be a chemist among us, unfortunately.
Portia thank you for the article. It really hits the target…
Take a moment, and walk thru your barn at night. No matter how big or small. Let the smells surround you, and the sound of crunching give you peace. If you’re a boarder, take a moment, stand in your horses stall and enjoy. Merry Christmas everyone and Happy Holidays.
As far as keeping your “home” vets up to date on the legal meds and dosages, I think if your vet doesn’t know about the standards of the D&M Committee, you should be proactive and get them a copy of the latest rules. They should be able to go through that and figure out what is and isn’t legal. It’s an excellent idea to make it mandatory that show vets be USEF members.
It’s not a minor issue, but it’s obviously a treatable one. The horse, she says, is sound. Not just on the days she shows it, not just on the days it recieves medication. It’s sound. It has a medical issue, yes, but almost all horses have a medical issue of some form or another. As long as the horse is physically sound to evaluation (as opposed to underlying structural soundness, which effect the horse or not depending on the severity and the particular mentality of that horse), I do not see a problem with showing it.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by budman:
And, not to be rude, but Flash, we get it. You truly believe that if the horse needs anything more than hay, water, and grain it shouldn’t be showing. Fine, that’s a valid viewpoint and I respect your opinion. However, you are not contibuting anything to this discussion at this point.
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I don’t think you’re rude, but you may be impetuous because you haven’t read my posts very carefully. And what does “contibuting” mean? Is it a word you invented that means against bute? Very creative. If you don’t like what I post, skip it.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GotSpots:
For example, maybe I’m naive, but I certainly have never, ever heard of people regularly tranquilizing their horses in dressage or on the first day of an event, even though a calm, obedient horse is of competitive benefit there. The culture of the sport doesn’t support it, and the judges don’t reward it because each movement is judged independently: you can have a snort or a fart around in one corner and still get an 8 on a medium trot. Perhaps if there was a widespread movement to re-educate hunter judges so that a horse with a bit of sparkle in its eye or a tiny bounce in the corner isn’t penalized in favor of an LTD?
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Dressage judging doesn’t truly reward a tranqed horse either - you really do need that bounce and sparkle to get the very top scores. A tranqed horse who was a naturally good mover might get 6,6,6 … which is a credible score, but not a winning one, since dressage judges reward horses with a lot of energy in their gaits.
