THE suspension list

[elizabeth]

Interesting.
The five day thing is interesting. So a horse who takes Bute as a “maintenance” drug would need to stick a window in every five days?. . . .

Say, for example, that little Julie’s 2’6’’ packer needed the 1/2 g per day to keep him comfortable. The packer was a servicably sound older horse who just has the creaks and such that an older packer would have, and, to that end, he gets a half a Bute with dinner on days he works. Assume he goes to the Vermont series, which, as I recall, is two weeks. Because he’s pounding on harder ground there, let’s assume he gets 1.5 g’s of Bute (half at dinner, half in the morning). Would he have to take a break off that dosage every five days, since he’ll be there for more than 5 days?

[Moesha]

One thing to note is that many , many trainers at the local level drug there horses all the time. I am not saying two wrongs make a right. But in all fairness, people at the local level are not under the AHSA drug enforcement rules and it is unfair to make it sound like this is only a A circuit problem. What makes it an issue is that USAEQ has rules and drug testing…If this was done at the local level, we would see a much larger suspension list.

Just something to think about.

[Snowbird]

A 100 years ago when I was still young I proposed that each show should receive from the then AHSA a box of test tubes. That the show would pay for the veterinary to take samples from all the ribbon winners.

In this case I don’t think any show manager would object to the cost for a veterinary. The box would be sent back to the AHSA who then could still do ramdom tests.

The problem I’ve been told is the chain of custody in the event of a charge when finding drugs. So legals out here any other suggestions?

I second the motion that it should be out on the web with the list and not just published in USA Equestrian. And that we should be able to do a search to determine how many times someone has been found culpable in any violations ever and for what cause.

Certainly, that would not be a list I’d want my name put on.
Battle Scarred Veteran

[Flash44]

I think John Strassburger sums it all up nicely.

[Black_Market_Radio]

The governing body of “recognized” shows can’t stop anyone from owning, training, selling, abusing, killing, drugging etc you get the point. What they CAN control is not allowing people who are CAUGHT abusing, killing, drugging and so forth from training, riding, showing, instructing, coaching etc at or on the grounds of sanctioned shows.

Devilpups
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for government!”

[GotSpots]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I see your point, but wonder why both drugs would have to be administered on the show grounds. It isn’t like either of them is going to lose efficacy over a couple of days. So the case of those particular two (and Adequan is IM, anyway), the argument doesn’t hold. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, it’s a pretty accepted protocol to inject one 48 hours out and the other 24 out, in order to match the peaks of both in the system at the time of performance (not, of course, at an FEI event). The drugs have a peak period of efficacy, though yes, they do not dissipate in a short period of time. Moreover, many show horses live on the circuit and so don’t really “go home” in between shows. If you wanted to keep a horse on a program of Adequan and Legend, you’d need to do that injection on grounds.

But that argument’s really neither here nor there. I don’t think implementing FEI rules will fix the wrongdoers. I’d rather see increased drug testing and heightened suspensions.

[Beezer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandstone:
Its just an observation that I’ve made: the more posters are involved in big shows and nice horses the less likely they are to be really upset about this group of trainers that have been suspended.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, it’s logic like this that gives a bad name to A circuit folks. I’d like to think that not all of us who show at such a level check our morals at the door.

Of course, I also happen to think that the criminals who ran Enron ought to be thrown in the deepest dungeon and the keys thrown away. But that only may be because I don’t run a multibillion-dollar corporation.

***** Yes, Dr. Laura, I am my horses’ mom!*****

[Flash44]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DarkerHorse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
You have IV injections and you have IM injections. The last time I saw a trainer try to give an IV injection, the carotid artery was hit, the horse flipped over and went into convulsions, and the only way the horse lived was because the vet happened to be driving up the road about 1/2 mile away.

The trainer happened to be giving the horse a little tranq to remove some stitches (trying to help the horse’s owner save some $$).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, it isn’t easy to hit the carotid artery. Esp if you are giving the shot up high enough on the horses neck. There is a muscle that seperates the vein from the artery.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Must have been a talented trainer.

[AnnM]

Not to hijack the thread about current suspensions, but does anyone know the story behind the Darren Frazier/Equine Sports suspension from 2001? I used to show at their summer circuit growing up and always enjoyed it (except for the Florida weather, of course!).

Feel free to PT me if you think it’s more appropriate…

[Two_Toofs]

I haven’t read this entire thread, but reading what I have read, from a racing persons perspective, is so interesting to me.

In the race world, every winner is tested every time, plus one other competitor in each race at random. Blood and urine both with a track official observing the horse from finish line to spit box to urine collection and blood draw. Trainer is responsible no matter what if a horse tests positive - it is his or her responsibility to make sure the horse gets whatever he is supposed to and ONLY what he is supposed to - mix up, schmix up, you pay the fine/serve the time. If you have help that can’t keep medications straight, you find help that can and will. All rulings at all tracks for the past 30 days are always available online at http://www.arci.com/Recent7.asp

Possession of needles or injectable substances is forbidden by anyone other than licensed veterinarians - on track OR off track at any facility that houses horses eligible to race if you are licensed by the racing board (yes, you must get special permission if you are diabetic, etc.). There are HUGE penalties for breaking that rule - that one is the Motherload. Every horse is under security watch for several hours prior to racetime to be sure that there is no tampering with the horse by outsiders. Raceday meds (Lasix) are administered by a vet under watch of a security guard & representative of the trainer with tattoo checked at an exact time - 3 minutes late for your lasix and you are scratched & fined.

Yet it is still said that you have to allow a horse off the track to go through “detox” before retraining…

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying show folks are worse than race folks or visa versa - bad apples in all bunches and we’ve got our problems too. But for that very reason, the idea that a racehorse is said to have to “detox” by virtue of the fact that it is coming off the track seems a little extreme in light of what I’ve read. Heck, you can’t even run a horse on bute or banamine in my state (gladly so) and the worst “long acting” drug that effects behavior that you might come across in a horse off the track is Equipoise - which is by far NOT used on every horse, or even most horses, and is quite apparently present in that it will cause horses to show stallion-like behavior.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[This message was edited by Two Toofs on Dec. 17, 2003 at 07:22 AM.]

[This message was edited by Two Toofs on Dec. 17, 2003 at 07:28 AM.]

[RioTex]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darker Horse:
It’s so weird how everyone gives dex differently. We used to give 8cc of the ‘strong’ (I think 4mg/ml) stuff once per week a day and a half before the main day of showing.
And now the AHSA has so many different ‘options’ in their practical advice section. It is so weird.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why are you giving the dex on a regular basis?

Trinity Hill Farm

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
poltroon, if the scenario you just described was changd to insert hunter jumper names, I swear everyone and their brother would be saying that a) the vet took the fall for the rider or b) wasn’t this just another fine example of how ignorant h/j riders are, that they don’t even know what their horses are given, medication wise.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There were plenty of insinuations of both of these things for Ulla. The investigation took care of (a), but there’s even a quote from a seminar where Ulla said, “I just ride.”

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Calmness per se is not rewarded in dressage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> “Relaxation” is ESSENTIAL to a decent dresage score.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But the dressage “relaxation” is not the lay meaning of the word. You need the same kind of “relaxation” for dressage as a human needs for winning a 800 meter race. IE, hard to find in a bottle without losing the keenness and brilliance that is even more important.

“Calm” will get you 6,6,6,6… kiss of death in dressage.

[Risey27]

batgirl whats your email I can’t figure out these private thingys and i need to give u a reply…

[JEP]

Hey all,
I do really appreciate the responses of those taking interest in this thread-I am learning a lot.
Regarding the post about my horse-I’m sorry if I haven’t been more articulate, this is clearly a sensitive issue for me as I really do love my horse so much…My horse IS very sound, and very happy, for the time being…For the past year, he has only received bute on the Sundays after shows that he was worked really hard at.
He is a big lazy thing and we don’t work him hard at all (rarely jumps big at home, no morning hacks at shows, no lunging, etc.) ,and thus he never needs meds at home. He’s not a “jumper-y” jumper-he was my old maclay horse and he just flows around the course with a big step, not “up” or “fast”, so we never have to work him down. He doesn’t get sore or tired (knock on wood), and never threatens to stop or touch a rail. He’s a Nimmerdor baby who loves to jump and loves to go to shows-he gets crabby when he sits at home for too long…
–>I really hope that all of you out there are not presuming that I would show my horse if I believed he were in any amount of pain-I love him and plan to have him until his last day on earth, regardless of whether or not he becomes a “pasture ornament” as soon as tomorrow…

The only point I am trying to get across is that his program works for him, despite the fact that it may seem controversial to others, and he is leading a pain-free and happy life-that is what is most important. The fact that he is not just “serviceably” but “showably” sound is an incredible bonus, but I see it as a bonus and nothing more.
I guess I am hoping that people remember not to make assumptions about other peoples medical situations with their horses, and remember that there are people on the “AA” circuit out there who DO rank their horse’s well-being as priority one.
Thanks for hearing me out, everyone-I do appreciate it. Have a happy and safe New Years!

[Ruby_G_Weber]

Where’d you get the idea this is just about hunters?

[Anyplace_Farm]

I make it a sport to look for my ex-husband on the list. He made it one time.

"I NOW INFORM YOU THAT YOU ARE TOO FAR FROM REALITY."
Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, Iraqi Minister of Information

"Life ain't certain...ride your best horse first."  Unknown

[Midge]

I have given more injections than I can count. It is not rocket surgery, but does require one to…duh!..pay attention. So far, I have never hit the carotid, IVed an IM or IMed an IV. I’m certainly not saying it won’t happen. In fact, now that I’ve put it in writing, my next injection is gonna make me nervous

In any case, if a trembly handed heroin addict can hit a collapsed vein, I think most people with proper instruction can manage to hit a horse’s.

[DoubleTwistedWire]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kellsboro Jack:
Can anyone explain the logic as to why a horse can be banned from recognized shows? Obviously Barney Ward will never be reinstated to good standing, but isn’t the barring of all of his horses from competition ”" as long as he will be - mean essentially their careers are over?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The logic behind it is that it prevents the banned owner from profiting off it’s showing. Barney Ward can’t show a horse belonging to him, thus he can’t profit from it’s winnings directly.

Those horses are not permanently banned. All it takes to get them reinstated is proof of sale to a member who is not suspended.

[Weatherford]

The USAEq lab DOES do double blind testing - that is a second test is run if the first is positive… Then, a more thorough test is done if both original tests turn out positive - ONLY THEN are results sent to the hearing committee…

These guys are VERY VERY careful, and I truly doubt there would be a false positive in this process… Also, some blood is kept aside for future testing if there is any question.

Our lab is one of the best in the world, does a lot of work for other associations and vets, and is the only one in the Western Hemisphere accredited to test for the FEI…

Many of you probably don’t remember the addicted horses and ponies that went through withdrawals when reserpine was first testable and banned. It was horrible… What was even horrible was when PARENTS were unaware of it, and selling their horses in good faith to other parents… Sick business…

It’s OUT! Linda Allen’s 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!!