THE suspension list

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by radio talk:
After reading the suspension list this morning, could someone say as to why Todd Minikus has been changed? Now it reads indiffinitely, with no end…Or is this a computer gilch? Am hoping so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don’t have any inside info.

But in 99.9…% of the cases, an indefinite suspension means someone didn’t pay something, or their check bounced. If there was a fine associated with the suspension, he may be on indefinite suspension until the fine is paid. But that is just a guess on my part.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

I think that Reserpine testing is problematic, too. A few years ago, we sold a pony who, during vetting, tested false positive for Reserpine. It almost killed the sale and it turned out that it was a lab error–but I had to have the mare retested and, to confirm, sent the samples to three different labs (all were negative). There was no way that the mare was ever exposed to Reserpine–Regumate, maybe, but not Reserpine! I spent quite a bit of time researching this issue and found out the AHSA had “sent down” a number of people and some of the heaviest hitters had protested (and prevailed) because of the problems with the tests. I think that this is one of the reasons why experienced people get paranoid over inaccurate tests. By the way, any time we sell a horse now, we ask the purchaser to draw extra blood during the vetting and we pay to have it tested independently.

<<And so it all comes back to the nature of the sport, which simply can’t be changed (at least not significantly enough to solve these problems, that is).>>

I disagree with this. Of COURSE you could change the nature of the sport.

Here are some ways:

  1. DO use averaging to compute both year end awards and qualifying lists. That would ensure that the best horses don’t get pounded in the quest for points, and the ones who need to keep “questing” in an effort to raise their average will be less desireable than the genuinely good ones.

  2. As has been suggested on this thread, changing the nature of the hunter courses would certainly help to level the playing field even further by encouraging people to develop a wider variety of horses.

  3. Ditch the increment rating system, which has killed off the B and C shows, making it “the law” that horses HAVE to be subjected to multi-day shows (and all that goes with them, including confinement to 10x10 stalls, endless road trips, and the requirement that an rider must belong to the leisure class in order to participate).

  4. Increase the number of testing samples drawn at every show and THEN randomly select them for testing. If every winner was tested, and if the testers were sent to more shows (or if all show vets whether present or on call) were required to simply show up and draw samples at some point during the day it would significantly increase the odds that offenders would back away from the medicine chest. (BTW, I suggested this waaaaay back, and Lord Helpus either picked up on it or also suggested it)

Would the above suggestions wreak havoc among the “establishment?” Perhaps. But they are certainly worth consideration.

yes it does stop their hearts. this is what is use to euthanis (i can’t spell) horses.

But why is there this seeming need to pander to the lowest common denominator? Look, I’m an owner. I work more than 60 hours a week. I have my horse in full training. I ride competitively, or try to. In essence, I am pretty darn close to those “syndicates” or “absentee owners” you all are describing, with the exception that I show up and ride and compete when I can.

I don’t kid myself: I’m sure that several of my dressage rides, or the couple of A/O classes we did at HITS might have been much improved by a little cocktail. Heck, I might even have gotten a $0.99 piece of ribbon and maybe ten seconds of applause, too. And I’m sure that either it would be unlikely that he’d get tested or that someone could dig up somethng that wouldn’t test if we tried it. But I am too stinking proud to try it.

Don’t treat me, or any other owner, like I need to be coddled. Don’t patronize me by saying that I can’t possibly understand what my horse gets and why, how he is treated, why, or by who. Teach me what I don’t know. Acknowledge that while I’ve not owned the most famous horses, worked for the very best riders, or won the Medal, I am a capable, talented adult who can understand, if you make the tiniest effort to try, or I am a parent who can make some effort to comprehend what is happening to my child. Take thirty seconds out of your day: the same amount of time it would take you to give an IM injection, and tell me what you are doing. Don’t assume that I don’t need to know. Ask me. Educate me. But don’t make a unilateral decision that could affect my or my child’s safety because you think this week’s hot cocktail will make a difference.

Chanda, I’ve admired your posts for awhile. I’ve adored your horse from afar for years. And I know you’re a smart girl, and I believe a grad of my own school. But I just don’t get it here. Why say it’s ok because everyone else does it? It’s not ok. It’s not ok for the horses’ well-being. It’s not ok for the riders’ safety. And it is not ok under the rules.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Horseymama:
I, personally have made some dumb mistakes as I am sure others here have as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I absolutely should have added that we’re expecting a lot from owners, especially new owners. I was raised by professionals and I have been around the participants of the top of our sport for 23 years. Yet I have still made some amazingly stupid mistakes involving horse care, and I’m sure I have some mistakes left to make.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beezer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Molly99:
Personally,

I would be in favor of pulling blood and urine on all ribbon winners, but picking at random from those the ones to test.

This way you know if you get a ribbon you will have the means to be tested, but you don’t really know if they test your sample or not.

A little more expensive, and an increase in the drug fee would be OK, but you wouldn’t have to really test anymore than are tested now. Nothing to say that you need to test any from a given show, but the exhibitor would not know that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooooooohh! I really like this idea! It has many, many things going for it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. I have no idea (I am hoping that others do) what the cost of collection and storage is v. the cost of testing. Perhaps only a fraction of the horses collected are tested now. If so, that is sad…

But I would pay more in drug fees to collect more horses and then just store a % of the samples. Now that every horse competing must have a registration number, it would not be a hard job for a computer to keep track of stored samples on any given horse.

Then if a horse’s sample came up for testing at a show and drugs were found, all stored samples for that horse could be pulled out for testing (or all stored samples for that trainer…).

This additional testing would be paid for by the trainer or owner as part of the penalty for the first positive sample. It would show if the horse had been shown on drugs (of any sort) in the past.

Honest trainers whose horse got contaminated feed (the “Oh Star” defense) would be very happy to have other samples available to back up their claim that this was not an ongoing practice but a one time mistake.

Dirty trainers who used drugs as part of their training plan could then be given additional fines/suspensions from double (for one other positive sample) to banning for life (for 3 or 4 other positive samples.)

I have heard via the grapevine that someone will be set down for life because of repeated positive samples found in horses under his care. It has taken years to get to this ultimate penalty. But under my plan, a trainer could possibly be banned for life by retroactively testing samples associated with a horse who had one positive test, and so had all prior samples pulled for testing.

THIS ultimate penalty which could be assessed by tracing old samples back as a result of finding only ONE positive sample seems to me to be far scarier to a trainer than to have 5 separate bad samples found over a period of 20 years.

Legally, the concept of probable cause supports this plan. If a horse is found to have shown on [reserpine] at Show A, then the Federation has probable cause to suspect that it might have been shown tranquilized at prior shows, and so can test all samples held in storage from that horse.

Gosh! I LIKE this idea… And I would pay my share for additional collection and storage to have it implemented.

The names are slowly coming out and if you don’t want to link names to possible reasons for suspensions, I can agree whole heartedly. But one thing that is a fact about the names being listed by USEA, these folks have broken the rules and as a result their clients are going to suffer by not having their trainer with them at the shows over the next couple of months.

batgirl,
That is a bummer. I’ve been fortunate I guess to have grown up and lived in VA and now TX and been able to find an honest trainer who did/does the A shows. That was my point, they do exist. Good luck in your eventing.

I really like LH’s idea.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dab:
There are very few client’s horses on the list – And the owners of these horses are not listed as suspended individuals – Does this mean the horses were drugged without the client’s knowledge?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It can mean that. It can also mean the clients claimed ignorance and there wasn’t sufficient evidence to the contrary to hold them liable, so the clients just didn’t get caught.

By signing an entry form, a trainer acknowledges that he/she has care or custody of the horse, and is therefore charged with responsiblity for, and presumed to have knowledge and control of, whatever goes into or on the horse’s body. That is a rebuttable presumption – thus leading to the instances of grooms and assistant trainers “taking the fall” – but in the absence of convincing evidence to the contrary, teh presumption will stand and the trainer will be presumed liable. Therefore, if the horse is in the trainer’s care and the owner isn’t around at the show, the owner probably won’t get taken down with the trainer.

However, regardless of who signs the entry form, any person having care or custody of the horse, or who the evidence shows had knowledge of or involvement in, the illegal drugging or other activity, can be held liable. If the evidence shows the horse stayed at home and only met the trainer at the show and the trainer didn’t touch the horse but the owner did give it drugs, then the owner can and will be held liable. Similarly, if the trainer/coach doesn’t sign the entry form (to avoid the presumption of control of the horse and of liability), but the evidence shows the trainer/coach took the horse behind the barn before the class, then that trainer/coach can and will be held liable.

Good points tegotong. If I am spending my very hard earned money on lessons and coaching, I want a coach that actually knows how to train a horse and rider, not a coach that puts on the old lab coat when the going gets tough.

5 years from now, I will have spend thousands and thousands on lessons and coaching. I want to have learned a lot about riding in that time period.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by War Admiral:

I’m kidding, but only half: I know both chocolate and Coca-Cola are on the no-no list - but what do they test for and in what amount? Any other obvious treats that test, that we might not all be aware of?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Valerian is illegal and it is testable.
Tryptophan, magnesium and calcium, if used for the purpose of altering behavior, are also illegal, but likely untestable.

Cola and chocolate contain theobromines–caffeine-related substances.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique…just settin’ on the Group W bench.

Ridin’ Fool - One of the GOOD things about this thread so far is that everyone here seems to realize that the upcoming list of suspensions is, as of right now, still UPCOMING and has not yet gone into effect.

We don’t need to be spreading ANY rumors or naming ANY names until the list is a matter of public record.


“No horse with cart horse blood inside three crosses can stand an extreme test against horses bred for Epsom Downs and the Metairie Course…”
–Marguerite Bayliss, The Bolinvars

sesroh- I see what you are saying but the class is called hunters. Why should brilliance be penalized? Look at the show hunters from the 60’s and 70’s. They are NOTHING like the show hunters of today. They were much more like a horse you would see in the hunt field (as many of them did both). There is an EXAGERATED difference between a show hunter of today and a real hunter. Like Ghazzu said, the standard has already been changed. Maybe it is time to start changing it back. I think it is unrealistic to expect a fit athletic horse to march around like a robot. Hence we have all these drugging problems…

P.S. sesroh-I am not picking on your horse, I think he is adorable. I wouldn’t take my show hunter into the field either… Because the qualities a show hunter needs to win in the ring ARE not the things I want in a field hunter.


“I’m not going to have reporters pawing through our papers. We are the president.”
– Hilary Clinton

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
OK. So the Reserpine was meant for Oh Star who was on layup. I have no idea if it is given daily, but if it has a 45 day testing window, I am doubting that, since it seems to be long acting.

But, lets forget about Oh Star for a minute and focus on the horse who got the drug by mistake. Seems to me that it would have been acting differently than Todd would expect. It would have been acting quiet and like it was not feeling well.

WHY would he show such a horse? If the horse was tranq’ed by mistake, it just would not be acting like it should. I would think that a horseman would notice this and take it back to the barn for a thorough going over.

I am not at Todd’s level, but I know how the horses under my care should be acting. If one is much more lethargic than normal, I would taike its temp and try to find out WHY the horse was not acting right.

Has this aspect of his defense been addressed?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Reserpine does not have an effect on all horses and it has to be given more than once for the effects to be noticable. I know 2 horses that were given reserpine to help them deal with a traumatic incident and you would have never been able to tell they were being given any drug.

Here are some descriptions of dexamethasone and its effects and side effects that I picked up off a Google search.

From aegis.com (a human drugs and medications web site):

"DRUG DESCRIPTION
Dexamethasone suppresses inflammation and normal immune response, and is used systemically and locally to treat chronic inflammatory disorders, severe allergies, and other diseases.

SIDE EFFECTS
Chronic treatment with dexamethasone will lead to adrenal suppression. Adrenal glands produce necessary hormones and some steroids. Chronic use in children inhibits growth, and the lowest possible dose should be used over the shortest period of time. The most common side effects are depression, euphoria, hypertension, nausea, anorexia, decreased wound healing, acne, muscle wasting, bone pain, and increased susceptibility to infection. Inflammation is one of the ways your body fights off infection, and if the inflammatory response has to be suppressed, usually because it is an autoimmune response, then your immune system is not as able to fight off other infections."

From marvistanet.com (a general veterinary info site):

"USES OF THIS MEDICATION
Dexamethasone is a member of the glucocorticoid class of hormones. This means they are steroids but, unlike the anabolic steroids that we hear about regarding sports medicine, these are “catabolic” steroids. Instead of building the body up, they are designed to break down stored resources (fats, sugars and proteins) so that they may be used as fuels in times of stress. Cortisone would be an example of a related hormone with which most people are familiar. Glucocorticoids hormones are produced naturally by the adrenal glands.

We do not use glucocorticoids for their influences on glucose and protein metabolism; we use them because they are also the most broadly anti-inflammatory medications that we have. Their uses fit into several groups:

Anti-inflammatory (especially for joint pain and itchy skin)

Immune-suppression (treatment of conditions where the immune system is destructively hyperactive. Higher doses are required to actually suppress the immune system)

Cancer Chemotherapy (especially in the treatment of lymphoma)

Central Nervous System Disorders (usually after trauma or after a disc episode to relieve swelling in the brain or spinal cord)

Shock (steroids seem to help improve circulation)

Blood Calcium Reduction (in medical conditions where blood calcium is dangerously high treatment is needed to reduce levels to normal)

SIDE EFFECTS
Dexamethasone does not have activity in the kidney leading to the conservation of salt. This means that the classical side effects of dexamethasone use ( excessive thirst and excessive urination) are less pronounced with thius steroid than with others. This makes dexamethasone a more appropriate choice for patients with concurrent heart disease or other condition requiring restricted salt intake. If this occurs, another steroid can be selected or the dexamethasone dose can be dropped.

Dexamethasone is commonly used for several weeks or even months at a time to get a chronic process under control. It is important that the dose be tapered to an every third day schedule once the condition is controlled. The reason for this is that body will perceive these hormones and not produce any of its own. In time, the adrenal glands will atrophy so that when the medication is discontinued, the patient will be unable to respond to any stressful situation. An actual circulatory crisis can result. By using the medication every other day, this allows the body’s own adrenal glands to remain active.

Any latent infections can be unmasked by dexamethasone use. (Feline upper respiratory infections would be a classical example. When a cat recovers clinically, the infection simply goes dormant. Glucocorticoid use could bring the infection out again.)

Glucocorticoid hormone use can be irritating to the stomach at higher doses.

INTERACTIONS WITH OTHER DRUGS
Glucocorticoid hormones should not be used in combination with medications of the NSAID class (ie aspirin, Rimadyl, phenylbutazone etc.) as the combination of these medications could lead to bleeding in the stomach or intestine. Ulceration could occur.

CONCERNS AND CAUTIONS
Dexamethasone is considered to be a long acting steroid, meaning that a dose lasts about two or two-and-a-half days. For this reason an “every other day” schedule will be excessive for dexamethasone; every third day (or less) is the goal for dexamethasone.

The same salt retention that accounts for the excessive thirst and urination may also be a problem for heart failure patients or other patients who require sodium restriction.

Diabetic patients should never take this medication unless there is a life-threatening reason why they must.

Glucocorticoid hormones can cause abortion in pregnant patients. This class of hormone should not be used in pregnancy.

Dexamethasone use is likely to change liver enzyme blood testing and interfere with testing for thyroid diseases.

Dexamethasone is approximately 10 times stronger than prednisone/prednisolone.

When dexamethasone is used routinely, serious side effects would not be expected. When doses become immune-suppressive (higher doses) or use becomes “chronic” (longer than 4 months at an every third day schedule), the side effects and concerns associated become different. In these cases, monitoring tests may be recommended or, if possible, another therapy may be selected."

From Medicinenet.com (a general human d&m information site)

"DRUG CLASS AND MECHANISM: Dexamethasone is a synthetic adrenal corticosteroid. Corticosteroids are natural substances produced by the adrenal glands located adjacent to the kidneys. Corticosteroids have potent anti-inflammatory properties, and are used in a wide variety of inflammatory conditions such as arthritis, colitis, asthma, bronchitis, certain skin rashes, and allergic or inflammatory conditions of the nose and eyes. There are numerous preparations of corticosteroids, including oral tablets, capsules, liquids, topical creams and gels, inhalers and eye drops, and injectable and intravenous solutions. Dexamethasone that is prescribed in oral tablet form is addressed in this article.

Dosage requirements of corticosteroids vary among individuals and diseases being treated. In general, the lowest possible effective dose is used. Corticosteroids given in multiple doses throughout the day are more effective, but also more toxic, than if the same total dose is given once daily, or every other day.

PRESCRIBED FOR: Dexamethasone is used to achieve prompt suppression of inflammation in many conditions. Some examples include rheumatoid arthritis, systemic lupus, acute gouty arthritis, psoriatic arthritis, ulcerative colitis, and Crohn’s disease. Severe allergic conditions that fail conventional treatment may also respond to dexamethasone. Examples include bronchial asthma, allergic rhinitis, drug-induced dermatitis, and contact and atopic dermatitis. Chronic skin conditions treated with dexamethasone include dermatitis herpetiformis, pemphigus, severe psoriasis and severe seborrheic dermatitis. Chronic allergic and inflammatory conditions of the uvea, iris, conjunctiva and optic nerves of the eyes are also treated with dexamethasone.

Dexamethasone is also used in the treatment of blood cell cancers (leukemias), and lymph gland cancers (lymphomas). Blood diseases involving destruction of platelets by the body’s own immune cells (idiopathic thrombocytopenia purpura), and destruction of red blood cells by immune cells (autoimmune hemolytic anemia) can also be treated with dexamethasone. Other miscellaneous conditions treated with this medication include thyroiditis and sarcoidosis. Finally, dexamethasone is used as a hormone replacement in patients whose adrenal glands are unable to produce sufficient amounts of corticosteroids.

DRUG INTERACTIONS: Prolonged use of dexamethasone can depress the ability of body’s adrenal glands to produce corticosteroids. Abruptly stopping dexamethasone in these individuals can cause symptoms of corticosteroid insufficiency, with accompanying nausea, vomiting and even shock. Therefore, withdrawal of dexamethasone is usually accomplished by gradual tapering. Gradually tapering dexamethasone not only minimizes the symptoms of corticosteroid insufficiency, it also reduces the risk of an abrupt flare of the disease under treatment.

Dexamethasone and other corticosteroids can mask signs of infection and impair the body’s natural immune response to infection. Patients on corticosteroids are more susceptible to infections, and can develop more serious infections than healthy individuals. For instance, chicken pox and measles viruses can produce serious and even fatal illnesses in patients on high doses of dexamethasone. Live virus vaccines, such as small pox vaccine, should be avoided in patients taking high doses of dexamethasone, since even vaccine viruses may cause disease in these patients. Some infectious organisms, such as tuberculosis (TB) and malaria, can remain dormant in a patient for years. Dexamethasone and other corticosteroids can reactivate dormant infections in these patients and cause serious illnesses. Patients with dormant tuberculosis may require anti- TB medications while undergoing prolonged corticosteroid treatment.

By interfering with the patient’s immune response, dexamethasone can impede the effectiveness of vaccinations. Dexamethasone can also interfere with the tuberculin (TB) skin test and cause false negative results in patients with dormant tuberculosis infection.

Dexamethasone impairs calcium absorption and new bone formation. Patients on prolonged treatment with dexamethasone and other corticosteroids can develop osteoporosis and an increased risk of bone fractures. Supplemental calcium and vitamin D are encouraged to slow this process of bone thinning. In rare individuals, destruction of large joints can occur while undergoing treatment with dexamethasone or other corticosteroids. These patients experience severe pain in the involved joints, and can require joint replacements. The reason behind such destruction is not clear.

PREGNANCY: Dexamethasone can be used in pregnancy, but is generally avoided.

SIDE EFFECTS: Dexamethasone side effects depend on the dose, the duration and the frequency of administration. Short courses of dexamethasone are usually well tolerated with few and mild side effects. Long term, high doses of dexamethasone will usually produce predictable, and potentially serious side effects. Whenever possible, the lowest effective doses of dexamethasone should be used for the shortest possible length of time to minimize side effects. Alternate day dosing can also help reduce side effects.

Side effects of dexamethasone and other corticosteroids range from mild annoyances to serious irreversible bodily damages. Side effects include fluid retention, weight gain, high blood pressure, potassium loss, headache, muscle weakness, puffiness of and hair growth on the face, thinning and easy bruising of skin, glaucoma, cataracts, peptic ulceration, worsening of diabetes, irregular menses, growth retardation in children, convulsions, and psychic disturbances. Psychic disturbances can include depression, euphoria, insomnia, mood swings, personality changes, and even psychotic behavior. The bone and joint complications of corticosteroids are discussed above in DRUG INTERACTIONS."

You know, if you just stick to the basics to feed your horse and use training methods to change his behavior, you don’t have to worry about accidental positives.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
You know, if you just stick to the basics to feed your horse and use training methods to change his behavior, you don’t have to worry about accidental positives.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don’t think Todd needs to change any training methods - especially seeing as how Oh Star is not currently in training, but on STALL REST. I am sorry that not every one lives in the perfect world you apparently do, but believe it or not, accidents do happen.


…such are the horses on which gods and heroes ride.

Stoneybrooke Farm

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:

If you own a horse, and you want to be thought of as a horseman, vs. someone who rides, you need to learn about managing the beasts, and you need to learn what type of people you are paying to perform the hands on care of those beasts.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I doubt that the people who invest in horses strictly as a business venture care whether they are horsemen or not, especially the ones that are purely investors and don’t even ride!!! I also doubt that the majority of the owners that Chanda and Laurie (please correct me if I’m wrong) care whether they are considered horsemen either. And to be quite honest with you, I know about medications and I could care less if other people think I am a good “horseman.” I know what I know, I know there are things I don’t know. But I certainly don’t have all the time in the world to sit around and learn everything there is to know about every kind of medication that you can give a horse, what it does, what its long term effects are etc. I know enough to do the basics and if I don’t I call a trainer or a vet. And that is the way it will remain for me (and I would imagine a good deal of others) in the forseeable future.


“We learn from history that we do not learn from history.” ~ George Bernard Shaw

Repeat…Jane Clark and Robert Dover???

OMG…and very little shocks me…but this does.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That’s the way it is.