THE suspension list

RzB, I’m with you. I personally don’t feel one bit disadvantaged because others choose to use performance enhancing drugs. Now, let me clarify this by stating that I only feel this way in terms of actual performance in the showring. I am not referring to the morality of drugging, or it’s horrible effects on horse’s health, or in deceiving people into buying a horse with tempramental deficiencies. Those are the reasons I don’t ever give such drugs to my horses at shows.

The reason that trainers are tempted to give performance enhancing (a misnomer if there ever was one) drugs to their horses is that they can process so many more horses and clients through their business, and thus make a ton more money. Also, Dex is very cheap to buy, and they can make a fortune by giving it to the horses and charging the owners 100 times what they paid for the little vial. Another reason is it takes a huge number of grooms, assistants, helpers, riders and other “gofers” to manage a stable of 50 horses “in training”, and one would need hundreds of acres to provide the turn-out pastures that are so good for horses. Imagine the cost of the land for such a farm in places like the San Francisco Bay Area, or Los Angeles, or New York Metropolitan Area, or Washington D.C. …you get my drift! If the BNT had to actually train horses, there would be no way he/she could make the kind of money that some trainers are making today. Now some of these “trainers” couldn’t train a horse if their lives depended on it, and others are, in fact, very good horsemen, but the bottom line is that they use the designer drugs to provide efficiency. The horses wouldn’t need them if they led more reasonable lives, and compassionate handling.

What that means for you and me, is that if we strive to ride well and to become good horsemen in our care and management programs, and we are astute about the quality of the horses we choose to show, we can compete on equal terms with anyone…drugged or not. The good judges aren’t stupid, nor are they “political”. And much of the time, we (I judge)can tell if a horse is “enhanced”. The problem is that so many “trainers” think they haveto give their horses something, or are too busy to prepare them properly. When most of the class looks “enhanced”, and the others are ridden badly, or jump badly, judges have to pin what goes before them, and reward the best performances that they see. I truly believe that if the designer drugs vanished from the face of the earth, and everyone had to show without such aids, with few exceptions, the same people and horses would win anyway. Good jumping and quality horses are what a judge looks for in a hunter…and a round where all the fences look the same and the performance looks smooth and effortless…that takes good riding. If you can produce that without drugs, and it can be done, you’ll do just fine. And your horses will be much better off and happier too.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Molly99:

First, you need to find out all the facts regarding the drug suspensions. Trainers themselved DID NOT have access to this drug. Keep that in mind when throwing your flames. Someone had to give it to the trainers.

I really don’t give a rat’s patootie where they got it, whether from a bent vet or an accomodating MD, or some guy named Red on the corner.
Unless the trainer injected said drug because there was a thug holding a pistol to their heads, the trainer broke the rules and deserves suspension.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique…just settin’ on the Group W bench.

I have really hesitated to enter this topic. But, I just really think there are a lot of reasons this happening.

It’s become big business and everyone wants to take the shortcut - reason: the costs involved so astronomical and everyone keeps putting timeframes on young horses that are in my own opionion ridiculous. When you consider the mortality of an animal - at least those taken care of w/ care and patience, etc. I can name two people at my barn right now who are constantly making statements like "so and so’s horse is doing the first years this year - why can’t mine. Everyone seems to want to keep up w/ the Jones.

I think until customers get smarter (and I’m not talking about educating themselves on drugs); I’m talking about smarter about their own choices in buying horses. When you really stop and look around, there are so many people out there buying green horses and they have absolutely no business buying green horses. They do it because they think they will get a nicer horse in the long run for less money. Hello - WRONG !!! They ruin them, unless they get help professionally which they tend not to because of again $'s. So why not spend that same amount on an older horse w/ the experience than a younger one that you are going to screw up and then want the professional to fix and/or sell because YOU made a mistake. Maybe there should be a test for some of these owners before they are allowed to purchase green horses and not make the practical commitment to good training.

I think there are many many good riders out there that can do this and do do this - but, then there are so many that don’t have a clue and just think because they have been riding x amount of years they are qualified to purchase/train a green horse. It does not work that way - it’s a whole different ballgame that takes time and stragizing and usually they have other jobs etc., so it gets done half a…

Trainers are at fault here to. Because they think if they can just get the horse in, the training part will come. It usually does not - or at least not in the way it should because if they could not afford that nicer horse to begin w/ - what makes you think they can afford that training ??

I agree that a lot of pressure is put on trainers to get to a certain point in a certain amount of time. But, they should not succumb to this and in the long run they would have the clientele they want rather than the pushy ones that are pain to be around.

But, we as horse owners should be smarter about what we can or can’t afford and what kind of time we can really put into our horses and put their well being ahead of the pressure to do this or that.

It can be done !

I think this forum has brought about a new awareness for a lot of people and it would really be great if some kind of article would be written up in the Chronicle or PH so that those who do not read this thread could somehow get clued in.

We have to get the rules changed first and foremost asap to make breaking the rules really harsh and fair to all.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DarkerHorse:
[Bute is not strong enough. If you were giving 100cc of it, maybe (10 pills). Of course, I bet the horse would colic if you did that, and that would be illegial at a show.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Injectable phenylbutazone is a 20% solution–100 cc would be 20 grams. That would be the equivalent of 20 one gram tablets.

The horse might colic, but that would be en route to dying of acute renal failure.

And no, giving more wouldn’t result in killing more pain.
Once you’ve reached the maximum therapeutic level, you don’t get a bigger effect.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique…just settin’ on the Group W bench.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jake’s Dad:
i wonder how many people are not going to hits this year and west palm?////<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don’t think the suspensions are effecting WEF this year. From what I have seen and heard, it will the biggest WEF ever.

OK, I understand Laurie and Portia. Well then, let’s look at the other disciplines. I haven’t heard of too many dressage trainers getting caught (maybe I’m just naive?) and the 3-day riders seem to have a handle on their competitors, so what are hunter / jumper folks doing differently? Obviously over-showing. How do the dr/3-day managers sort it all out?

I’m of the belief that there will always be a pernicious segment of the population, especially when large sums of money are involved, and that the only way to protect the innocent (in our world, horses) is to force the issue. This has been building since showing began, and unless we want it to become even worse, something has to change.

Harsher penalties is a start. Limiting showing is an ideal. Perhaps adding a section to the junior classes where they are quizzed about horse care and the ill effects on horses of drug use a la Pony Club. At least that will educate the up and coming generation.


“Whether you think you can or think you can’t - you are right.” -Henry Ford

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J. Turner:
Before choosing a trainer for her expensive investment (for all of us it’s relatively expensive investment), check to see if the trainer has ever been suspended for anything. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as I’m aware, unless you go thru each old issue of Horse Show, there’s no way to search past suspensions, only current ones.

Which brings me to my point. I have little doubt that several of the “Don Stewart” suspended horses have long since been sold, retired, are using an alias or otherwise dropped out of the picture. Much the same as the horses listed under the ownership of Barney Ward, Acres Wild and Cellular Farm.

USAE is a a bit slow updating changes of ownership. On my renewal notice are three horses I haven’t owned in years and absent is the one I do own.

I believe this is the rule at FEI competitions?? (only vet can give injections)

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x:
I think that is the idea between a handy hunter class, which is rarely seen today!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, we see more than I would like (I have a former jumper who loses most of her hunter style after the first roll back) In any case, all sections of juniors at AA (and A?) shows have to have one handy hunter class. There is also a handy for both sections of amateurs every week in FL and KY. The workings rarely have them, but they can be found at Devon and WIHS.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paige-Hortman:I second that…many of you dont know the exact circumstances of the suspensions etc…

PAIGE<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paige, what did your trainer tell you about his suspension?

Ad hoc, I see you are from Illinois. I am too. If you are not aware of all the horse scandals occurring about our area in the last decade, be sure to pick up a copy of the book Hot Blood by Ken Englade. It’s a good read and a true story about some of the BNT’s around here and the shocking things they were involved in. I actually rode with a trainer who was involved in killing horses for insurance money (unbeknownst to me at the time) and while I personally always liked her as an individual, the revelation was shocking and I couldn’t believe she would do something so horrible and I decided for my own principles, I had to leave that barn. If you want any more info, I can give it to you privately. I am pretty familiar with many of the scandals that have gone on around here with the locals.

Torturing jumpers was alot more popular when we had “rub” classes and deep cups…I guess some people think you can torture a horse into jumping cleanly but in the long run they are either careful or not. The great ones are natuarally careful, no need to “tune up”…When you start to tune on a careful horse you get a stopper. Most people I know buy brave (not so careful) for a junior/amateur and buy careful for the GP ring. You can’t make a horse do what they dont want to do. Someone a few posts back suggested that horses dont like to jump/show…tell that to my horse who pitches a fit whenever the van is loading or leaving! She wants to go too! Horses who like their jobs deserve maintenance, whether that is HA IA or legend/adequan, or an NSAID…they NEVER learn to like being a pasture ornament. If you can help them, help them. I would rather my horse have QUALITY of life than QUANTITY of life. Let the flames begin.

Betsy
www.threewindsfarmny.com

Lead, follow, or get out of the way…

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Coreene:
You know, huge European shows run on FEI rules without a vet issue - besides, if it is an emergency, presumably you’d be pulling the horse from competition anyhow. If it is not an emergency, then you either follow the rules or withdraw. It’s not brain surgery.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But that was not my point Coreene. My point was that I may not be able to get the vet quickly (small time person taking back seat to big time barn with 30 horses to inject) and I would not have the medications myself because it would not be legal for me to have the meds and syringes in my possession (or I could be called on the carpet for administering an IV med even though the horse was withdrawn from competition). I am fairly certain that if a horse is on the grounds it is subject to the rules of the association and the way I read the rule proposal (and someone please correct me if I am wrong) the no IV rule except by vets was applicable to all horses on the showgrounds. And, really, you would have to enforce it that way because it would be way too easy to say “I have the stuff but it is only for emergencies”. You would have to enforce it like they do at the track - no meds, no syringes, etc. otherwise it would be impossible to administer the program.

Nina

I very much agree. It is time to release who and why and all of the other nasty little details!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ByChance:
Ok - I’m seeing some names on the list that are surprises but what seems odd is that it appears as if ENTIRE STRINGS of horses are being suspended along with XYZ professionals.

So what’s the story? Drug testing is random no? So if they are being set down for “drugs” how is it that ALL the horses were “randomly” tested? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are suspended, all of your horses are suspended too–so theoretically a trainer (& this is what most likely happened I am willing to guess if this is the hypothetical situation) is being suspended for a client’s horse testing positive (i.e. the random pull) but every horse/pony registered as owned/leased by him is then suspended too.

My story is in the New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/uwire/uwire_TQED110720031291208.html?ex=1146286800&en

I have read through most of these posts and certainly wish to put my two cents in.
1. We have a set of rules that we are governed by, if you break the rules and get caught then those people should be punished apropriately. Those are the boundries that we must live within.
2. The reason that people try to bend and/or break the rules is to try and get and edge. So they have a better chance of winning. That is plain and simple, now why trainers feel they have to win comes from a variety of different motivations. Fame, money, insecurities, whatever it is that drives them to do this.
3. Lets look at the bigger picture. People cheating by using illegal drugs happens in every sport, we see track and field stars in the Olympics getting caught (Ben Johnson comes to mind) professional Baseball just realeased a report that 5-7% of players tested were using steriods so now there will be mandatory testing in MLB, people using THG which they thought was undetectable are now being caught.
There are always those that think they need to cheat to get the extra edge instead of teaching them that practice, hard work and a little bit of patience can often give you the same results if not better. These are the things we need to be teaching people not the fast food mentality of having to have instant success the we as Americans tend to have.

www.canterburyfarm.net

Don’t know any of these people, but I pasted the data into a spreadsheet, moved it into 2 columns, which lost the city/state info, but then I sorted it on the date column.

Since the date is not a date field, it sorted it based on the month (descending), but here is what I pulled off that list on the USAEq site.

STEWART, DONALD E JR 11/03/03 - 03/02/04
MILES, REBECCA 11/01/03 -
FLATEGRAFF, JERIMEY 10/31/03 -
HORSEFEATHERS EQUESTRIAN INC. 10/23/03 -
MARTIN, KIMBERLEE 10/23/03 -
SCHNECKNER, CHRISTIE 10/23/03 -
BRICKLEY, CYNTHIA 10/11/03 -
CALDWELL, JENNIFER 09/24/03 -
FRAZE, ERIN C. 09/24/03 -
GOODRICH, ALLYSON 09/24/03 -
GREENWOOD, KAY 09/24/03 -
HOLZER, RUSTY 09/24/03 -
MARLOW, TAYLOR 09/24/03 -
MELNYK, NIKI 09/24/03 -
PARK, CLAIRE 09/24/03 -
SLOAN, JENNIFER 09/24/03 -
SMILOVIC, MARGARET E 09/24/03 -
WOLF, STEVE 09/24/03 -
GARDNER, AUVORA 09/24/03 -
GARRISON, LISA 09/24/03 -
KELLY, MOLLY J 09/24/03 -
KRUEGLER, DENNIS M 09/24/03 -
LUGAR, JIM 09/24/03 -
MARLOW, KELLY 09/24/03 -
POTTS, AMY 09/24/03 -
RUGUSA, CHRISTINE 09/24/03 -
CRAWFORD, JOHN J 09/23/03 -
MEINERS, CORD 08/19/03 -
BLACKEY-BOVE, JOANNE 08/14/03 -
HUSTEAD, MARY 09/09/03 -
HUSTEAD, W BUGH 09/09/03 -
STARBIRD FARM LLC 09/09/03 -
JENNY WARD STABLES 07/28/03 -
COOPER, SUSAN 07/02/03 -
FRIEDMAN, MICHAEL 07/02/03 -
STEWART, CAROLINE 07/02/03 -
COOK, STEFANIE A 06/20/03 -
HOGAN, LYNN 06/20/03 -
MC NAIR, VALERIE 06/20/03 -
SAN JUAN, LEONARDO R. 06/20/03 -
COLE, ELIZA 06/20/03 -
GHERE, MEGAN 06/20/03 -
GOUDY, ARDEN 06/20/03 -
PISTOR, JACQUELINE M 06/20/03 -
RIDER, PAMELA M 06/20/03 -
RODDEY, KATHERINE E 06/20/03 -
BLAUEO, RODOLFO 06/12/03 -
KAUFFMAN, KELLIE 06/12/03 -
PATTON, RICHARD 06/12/03 -
BYER, AMANDA 06/12/03 -
GOLDBAS, SASHA 06/12/03 -
MASON, KERRI 06/12/03 -

Eh, there are obviously more, but that is all I felt like going through. Since mid-June.

Mel

But what about the Working hunter who HAS the Humongous natural stride, jumps 4’ with room to spare, FREAKY good mover. Do you penalize this horse because it actually goes this way naturally?Must a working hunter GALLOP if it can lope around and jump smoothly over the 4’?
I’m just playing devil’s advocate here, since I used to own one of the above wonder horses.

He would throw in a pretty big spook on a semi regular basis, so it was apparent that he had plenty of life in him.

It would be nice if there was a combination of more blood pulling & a different way of judging. I really like Weatherford’s proposal. I know there is software that processes the scores immediately for dressage, so it wouldn’t be that hard to get it keyed up for hunters.
I was lucky enough to be in the broadcasting section at the Olympic games in Atlanta & you could watch the dressage scores come up within seconds of the movement. The scores came from all judges plus the average. It was amzing to see the differences in preference as far as artistic merit went, but the overall technical scores were very similar from all judges.

HMMM, just had a thought- ouch! Instead of artistic merit, the subjective coefficient coud be for overall appearance, and suitability- each weighing differently for different divisions(or not)

One idea that’s been floated before would be to calculate HOTY awards on an average rather than cumulative points awarded. I can’t remember what the arguments against that were?? Still seems like it would make sense to me - to invent a system where people are not actively encouraged to overcampaign their horses.

Chanda (and others) will doubtless hate me for this - but I would also be in favor of not just suspending the trainers, but the OWNERS as well. For, like, a year for the first violation, two years for the second, third strike, you are gone, permanento. Mind you, I have to also admit that in the beginning, this could well be a litigation nightmare… But any action brought by owners collectively would likely end by being tossed out because, bottom line, they (or their agents) broke the rules and showed horses on illicit substances. JM2C though.


“No horse with cart horse blood inside three crosses can stand an extreme test against horses bred for Epsom Downs and the Metairie Course…”
–Marguerite Bayliss, The Bolinvars