So tryptothane is legal, and Valarium root isn’t?
“Remember: You’re A Customer In A Service Industry.”
“Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies,and SunnieFlax Cliques”
Well… Once upon a time, I rode hunters. How long ago, oh my children? Uhhhhh…we had a FIVE-THOUSAND dollar horse go to the Medal/Maclay…and a very determined Mom went to the trainer and said trainer found her a horse for…wait for it…
SEVEN THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED dollars so that Mom’s daughter could go to Medal/Maclay.
Back then, in the dark ages, style, spit and polish were everything…
And there were still drugs.
Crude compared to today, but existent and I guess effective.
You all really want drugs controlled in h/j land…?
Each and every person needs to go to their trainer(s) and say firmly–I do NOT care what ribbon I do/do NOT get. I do NOT care that Suzy Creamcheese will therefore beat me:
Do NOT give my horse drugs.
Then, for a while, ALL top ten horses get drug-tested after the class.
AND put some teeth into the punishments when the trainers are found guilty.
Hahahahaha…Im amusing myself imagining this happening.
Hey Flash - I’M CATHOLIC (but not practicing)!!! There’s no rehab for me when it comes to people who hurt/kill children or animals. Once a monster, ALWAYS a monster!
C.Boylen - So how long does it take for you to make up your hunters? I don’t think 4 years is very long to take a young horse from just starting to jump to solid, 3’6" courses. Do you buy them out of the pre-greens, finish them off in the amateurs, then sell them? Also, I thought you bred some babies as well? Do you sell them right away as weanlings or wait until they turn 2 or 3? Can’t be much money in that…
Oh, and if anyone thinks I am advocating the use of Reserpine I am not. Heck, I accidently killed a lab mouse in an anat & physio lab with reserpine. Basically, we were to measure the effect of reserpine on the respiratory system by measuring the tidal volume before and after the dose. I was quite traumatized by the incident even though we would probably have cut the mouse up later and was horrified when I learned people were dispensing to horses.
However, it has its use with horses that are on mandatory stall rest, etc. (as does another drug mentioned here, Prolixin) but it is one of those things that should be administered on the directive of a vet (and in the case of Prolixin I would darn well be sure that the vet did the administration).
Medicine is one of those areas where you sometimes are forced to make the choice between the rock and the hard place.
Nina
Thank you, clearound, for making the point I wanted to make.
We are talking here about a few bad apples – not all BNTs.
In fact, BNTs who make their livelihood by showing horses would NOT risk their ability to make a living by violating the rules. I have ridden with many BNTs over the years, and while I hear all the stories (and read about the suspensions), all of the BNTs I have shown with have beem excruciating careful about medications and feeding. Since I usually do my own medicating/feeding, they usually check with me EVERY DAY so that they get to approve what I give my horse for medication purposes.
So, to all of you, stop assuming that all BNTs are violating the drug rules and abusing the horses. If you would note just how many horses from many trainers are still going soundly, year after year, in the 3’6" and regular divisions, you know those horses are well taken care of, and loved by the trainers and their staff.
AND stop making derogatory negative generalizations about trainers – BNTs and others. It’s not fair and, frankly, it’s just not nice.
Frankly, I’ve seen more use of behavior-altering meds (Ace, etc.) at unrated shows (no drug regulations or testing) than I’ve ever heard of at sanctioned shows.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Molly99:
The show manager that was spoken of earlier was not suspended for a drug infraction, but for refusing to allow a drug tester to test the horse immediatly. Don’t know the outcome of the tests, but he was suspended for his actions, not a drug violation.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmm…Why would someone refuse to let a horse be tested??
“I’m not going to have reporters pawing through our papers. We are the president.”
– Hilary Clinton
So for those of us who aren’t current USAE members, how can we get a copy of the upcoming magazine and/or list? I’m VERY curious to see who’s on it and what specific reasons are given as I’m sort of browsing and thinking about trainers right now…
You know what? I AM doing something about it. I am facing reality that, as many posters have other noted, it is highly unlikely that anything serious will be done about this situation. Ban one drug and another will be found. Ban all drugs, and other cruel methods will be used to quiet horses.
So what am I doing? I am choosing not to get involved in that world. As much as I wish I could show and compete, I don’t care to compete with/against unscrupulous people. I will not be pouring my hard-earned money into the h/j scene. I will not be supporting the management or the trainers.
I wish it could be some other way, I really do. And I’m sure there are trainers out there who don’t drug to compete. But in this area where I live, they are few and far between.
“Both rider and horse must enjoy the work. This is the essence of success” - Reiner Klimke
I’m going to jump in 'cause this new drug at least in Canada has a strange story. AS I WAS TOLD = at a coaching clinic Feb/03 in Calgary a veterinarian suggested/recommended/mentioned the drug in question. Remember I wasn’t there. Clearance times were discussed. My good friend who was there left the room because she wasn’t interested and did not hear any more. It seems that a vet may have put the idea into the BNT’s brains. I dont like the idea that it may have been vet recommended. Anybody else in Calgary last Feb??
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MIKES MCS:
“Most owners are not involved, nor should be involved (due to lack of knowledge) in the medication or preparation of their horse. They trust their chosen trainer to handle their animal appropriately. I assume you aren’t an auto mechanic, do you go down into the pit when you take your car for an oil change?”
Just a quick comment … Horses aren’t cars, they are living breathing creatures who can experience mental physical and emotional pain. Regardless of how I feel about medicating I believe it is the responsabilitry of all horse owners to make it thier business to know if thier horse is being neglected , abused , or mistreated by anyone including thier trainer. The better comparison would be , would your want to know if your child were being medicated by your Nanny . JMHO<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do you tell your vet what to give your cat when it has sugury? Or which antibiotic to give your dog when it is infected?
Most people who keep horses with trainers don’t know enough to know when and what to give to their horses at horse shows. And, I’m talking about a gram or two of bute here, not something illegial. They don’t want to know. They don’t have time. That is why they have a professional. They love their horses, and they give them carrots, but they are not going to do it themselves. They aren’t going to muck out stalls. That is just the way lots of people are. The industry woudn’t work as it does now without people like this.
Janet…one trainer is widely bemoaning that he had given his horse reserpine weeks before in order to clip it. Didn’t realize it would still test 45 days out.
The utilization of psychotropics for clipping is a simply astounding display of solid livestock management, wouldn’t you say? 
and with all due respects to the vet or to Ulla, would sure like to see the clinical data on a skin condition that responds to testosterone.
Vets I have talked to and my own personal knowledge makes it hard to find.
unless it is the condition of flabby saggy skin due to lack of muscle bulk underneath it.
_\]
– * > hoopoe
The ancient Greeks did not write obituaries. They only wanted to know if you had a passion.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MsHunter:
I thought by insurance standards that was a no-no? OK, so I am not as educated as I should be either am I?
/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Jane, your barn sounds lovely. And my trainer is insured for giving shots. She told me about it once. I think my name is on her list too because sometimes I give shots for her to help around if anything needs pen or anything while she is budy (all of her clients know that I do the shots sometimes).
Why D’ya Do It?
great idea, but people would have to carry around a big sign to accomodate “4586altd@45ppt” 
And well, if they had to carry a sign AND ride, well, they would actually have to RIDE, wouldn’t they? Then where would fine upstanding citizens like Pocket Trainer be? Unable to support their wine habit! Talk about a REAL crime!! 
It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others…
Hey guys-
In response to the negative comments about injecting the coffin bone joint…In a perfect world I would love to not inject anything! However, sometimes these procedures are truly a godsent.
I got my jumper in Holland when he was 4-flawless x-rays (both pre-purchase and when he landed), sound as could be. at 7 x-rays brought to light HUGE navicular changes…a few times over the next few years, he was in so much pain that he would lie down all day, refused to walk, would point his toe when standing…i cry just remembering his face in those moments-the single most devastating sight an owner can see
He had $600 bar shoe jobs every month, tried legend, and adequan, and isoxuprine (sorry I can’t spell!), and methocarbomol, and bute; he lost a lot of weight, lives in a run stall so he walks around 24 hrs a day…
for whatever reason, the only thing that really worked during those severe episodes (in conjunction with the above, more long-term stuff) was injecting the coffin bone joint-despite the fact that it was clearly a navicular issue, not coffin bone injury (spent thousands ruling this out). every vet everywhere from vermont to indiana says he’s just a real bad navicular case…
the long and the short of it is- every situation is unique and requires one to carefully weigh the pros and cons of any treatment.
though it may be momentarily painful (he has never once flinched, however, so I’m not sure I agree) or cause long-term damage, it’s hard to believe that anyone here on this board wouldn’t do the same thing as I…
imagine if you saw your most beloved horse and best friend since you were 15 in so much pain on some occasions that he was unwilling to even stand (at age 7,8,9…etc). it took an unthinkable amt. of time, dollars, and tears, but we finally learned that for my particular horseone coffin bone joint injection would have him sound in a week. if he was yours, would you withold this treatment from him??
—i am very happy to say that with the right shoes, turn-out, the occasional bute and injection, we’ve been able to show the hi-aa and low a/o jumpers all year. though he’ll prob never be more than a 4’ horse now, just having him sound at all is a blessing i’m thankful for everyday.
no i dont believe that all AA riders and horses are being drugged. YES i do think that anything that is not permitted INTENDED to change a horses behavior is bad and be it glass shards in boots or a prick of a needle i think the people doing these things should be held responsiable. I am appalled that a number of professionals who the sport considers our top people have been found to be altering their horses preformance.
also LED TO BELIEVE IT WOULD NOT TEST hello do we not have any morals…ok it wont test i wont get caught so it must be ok…just like…ohh no one says i cant run my poor animal ragged till he almost dies then go jump him…that must be OK too…i think the main point of sandstones posts is that if no one has made a rule against it or if someone told you that it wouldnt be found out it must be ok…to me thats the biggest problem…when did people stop showing their horses for the fun of compitition and the love of horses and the company of fellow riders and start trying to win at all costs…seems a little Tonya Harding to me…maybe this is what we need…if your caught stiffer punishments…three strikes and your out something like that…remember when you giving drugs or beating an animal your not doing this to yourself…its almost like going out and hitting your top compitetor to make sure you win…but your doping up your partner…a defensless animal…
time to get back to the people who love the animals and the sport…again i do not think that everyone drugs their horses i guess i was naieve enough to think that the people showing and winning on the AA were just working harder having more money ect…guess i was wrong for some of them…
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<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumpin’Fool:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by woudn’tYOUliketoknow?:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LucianCephus:
LH…I just go to Edit, select “Find on this page,” and type in today’s date. Voila. The hit parade for 01/01/04 includes Gary Young, Sandra Lobel, Thomas Johnson, Darren Dlin, and Robert Crandall.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
LOL are you SURE they aren’t testing the people on at least one of these?!?!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, you bad, bad thing! That extra long sentence is from a cruelty charge on top of the drug charge. I am sure you are shocked and appalled!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
LOL simply aghast…(hoping I spelled that correctly)
You jam the radios and guess what they will just get on their CELL PHONES!!! 
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
It’s a shame our recreational sport has to be policed like this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Again, I’m going to point out that I don’t qualify what we are discussing as a recreational sport. This is a business involving billions of dollars, with millions of professionals, customers, and employees. It has widespread effects on local economies, and upon other enterprises such as real estate, commerce, and small businesses of all kinds. An industry such as this, whatever it may involve and whatever its purpose, will always require policing of some kind.
http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So what, compare horse showing to the NFL or baseball? Where are all the spectators? The vast majority of the participants are amateurs, and many many of those are of average talent or accomplishment (3 footers). Just because it costs a lot of money to participate in the sport does not elevate it beyond recreation. When spectators are paying to watch, and riders are earning big fat paychecks, it moves out of the recreational level.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hunterturnedjumper:
Sorry, totally off topic and completely out of the loop, but C Boylen is Rox Dene yours? Sorry to be so ignorant, but I find it hard to closely follow the US show circuits from my Canadian perch! I visited your webshots and loved seeing the photos of that awesome mare and your other beautiful hunters. I also remember seeing some photos of her and Rox Don in a PH years and years back, such a beautiful family of horses!
.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Rox Dene was owned by her mother and I think of late Chanda has taken over the care of her.
I am still waiting to find out where I can see this new list!
Courtney
I don’t want to grow up!!! I am a Toys-R-Us kid. From bikes to trains to video games its the the biggest toy store there is. Oh I don’t want to grow up because if I did, then I wouldn’t be a Toys-R-Us kid.
