THE suspension list

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
I had thought there were going to be some legal ramifications over the CC incident, but I guess that is just far too difficult to prosecute.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
CC?

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Incidents like these are what enable my dismissive attitude toward drug rule reform. Who here cannot say that they would rather see the above horse given a cc of ace, rather than dropped to the ground with a Ca injection? I hate to be the cynic here, but I’ll be very frank with you about my opinion. Whatever is done to make drug rules more stringent will be detrimental to the horses themselves. People will go to more and more dangerous ends to avoid getting caught. The more drugs that are outlawed or restricted, the more dangerous the drugs and practices that will replace them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand where you’re coming from, but I can’t agree with your conclusion. Sure, evil will always exist in the world, and yet, fighting it is still the right thing to do. It’s hard to catch people guilty of insider trading, or money laundering, and yet we still do it.

To openly cave to the “hey, go ahead and drug” faction is to give up the sport as a noble endeavor. Drugs should only be given for the horse’s direct health benefit, not because they will make him more compliant for the rider or more pleasing to the judge.

[Won2Keep]

KMZ,
That is a good question about sending them off on their own. Trainer has done it before so I don’t have an answer for this particular incident. After the show, I don’t think there was any question as to who was right. Horse was used up and could not be competitive at big shows anymore.

Clients did move on when trainer said no more. Another horse was not an option.

[BAB]

From a steward to all those wondering - no medication report has to be filled out for Dex now. Just obey the amounts allowed and you won’t get in trouble.

By the way, when medication reports were required for Dex - the last 2 or so years - the most I saw on a report was 15cc, a friend of mine who is also a steward saw one with the horse having been given 38 cc - yes, at one time.

[stephanie]

“funny” irony? I had just been looking at this thread when I picked up the newest issue of “The Horse”, which has a cover story called “A Win at Any Cost”? It’s a relatively detailed article, addressing specific drug and training abuses in Arabians, Western Pleasure, Walking horses, even eventing. There’s a whole review of USAEq’s drug testing facilities, but there’s not a single mention of the hunter/jumper industry. weird, no?

http://www.thehorse.com/qf.asp?fid=4851

[lauriep]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
Under the FEI rules (I have read the eventing ones, but I assume they are similar to the jumper ones)

-Only officially recognized vets can give injections
-The only injections allowed for competing horses are antibiotics and fluids to combat dehydration. (If you need to give anything else, you must first withdraw the horse from competition.)

That second restriction means that the official vets are not swamped.

If you (as under the current therapeutic rules) allow a much larger range of legal injections for competing horses, then I agree that the logistics associated with “only vets can give injections” become horrendous.

Too bad, because it sounded like a good idea in principle.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The size of the show (WEF) and the fact that the FEI rules only affect a tiny percentage of the 3000 horses, most of which are NOT showing under the FEI rules would make it a logistical nightmare.

Nina makes excellent points, as always. As do DMK and Chanda. Imagine how many vets you would need, at premium “horse show rates” to take care of any of the bigger shows. It simply isn’t feasible.

The best ideas are the ones making the punisments more severe for the offenders, leaving the law-abiding folk able to manage their horse care as they see fit.

A “Big Brother” type world is NOT what we want to move toward. The old adage about legislating morality is still a very true one.

Laurie

[MsHunter]

Just Jumps states"And, the race to the Zone finals really got out of hand when, because of the structure of the increment system, it became obvious that the Zone finals were now the ONLY indoor experience obtainable for those who would not be going on the road to the AAA’s. So instead of going to the B’s and even the C’s to earn points in the Junior and AO Hunters, riders now just didn’t move up out of the Children’s or Adults. So now the horses and ponies that DO qualify for the Zones are first of all just plain run off their legs in the process (and that’s just greed on the part of owners and trainers, IMHO). Mostly, it’s because the Zone Finals are the only real “goal” that they have to shoot for (and getting there provides a good living for a lot of trainers.) Indeed, many of the qualifiers are never the same again, after going through that process."

See I disagree. My program doesn’t typically touch on the “AAA” shows, or going to Zone finals. I am not in high demand though as I am not playing in the chase points game for performance only Hunter Breeding, and that is a bigger problem altogether for horses well being if you ask me!

However, the point I wanted to make is that I have never had some of my clients move up and out of AAs or childrens as the quality of horse wasn’t going to sustain winning at AAA shows unless the competition was weak. In other words, the 15K to 40K horse isn’t the one (unless maybe it was a talented young horse started taking it’s time getting there), that is going to win in the “AAA” venue. I think many of the riders have the talent to move up but not the $$ for the horse required to be successful at the AAAs or the $$$ to go to those shows. And, some just are happy at 3ft as it IS a hobby and sport all rolled into one!

Owner/Trainer of http://www.geocities.com/plumstedequestrianctr/

[Janet]

IIRC a certain big show got in legal trouble for NOT providing sharps containers.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

[SydneyS]

Okay, in response to local level drugging: Around here you’re more likely to see amateurs w/o trainers showing in the horse divisions. This area is full of long-time horsemen that work their own horses on their own farm. They might hunt, event or whatever and take their “projects” to the local horse show for the experience. Also, Virginia doesn’t have many B and C shows, mostly VHSA Associate. However, I might be missing the trainers that medicate at those shows. Who knows? The Associate thing has become an end in itself in recent years.

Who has fancy cars? Joe drives a Mercedes, Kim drives a Mercedes, Pam drives a Lexus, Denice drives a Jag, Kitty (I think) drives a Mercedes. That’s just off the top of my head.

[chrissy_mackris]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SaddleFitterVA:
lms,

Glad you counted. I also noticed that Lindemann and Cellular Farms had an awful lot. Wanna count those too?

Mel<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah i noticed that too…makes me curious.

Tipperary

[SydneyS]

I think these discussions are very healthy, except when the posts become personal attacks.

I personally don’t think the “accident” claim stands up, not with the professionalism of today’s grooms. But it’s not for me to say and I don’t think differently of Todd Minikus because he gave his horse medication. I still think he’s an unbelievable rider and trainer of horses.

However, I would not give him my horse to care for without my supervision. But I feel this way about ALOT of successful, talented trainers who I know are pharmacists or “ride/longe them 'til they’re dead” believers.

Some of us have to be idealists in the way we care for our horses, we need them to stay sound and healthy. Our investments are too precious (emotionally and financially); we can’t afford for them to break.

[wanderlust]

whalo- my post to palisades was mostly in regards to her erroneous statement that under Weatherford’s system, a horse could be horrible between fences but jump brilliantly and still win. Its nearly impossible if you actually take time to understand and do the math. I was simply pointing out that by her own example, she didn’t understand Weatherford’s system. Its fine to not want to break up the scoring (personally, I think Weatherford’s example is fantastic, but to each her own), but don’t dismiss something because you didn’t take the time to understand it first.

~formerly Master Tally~

[radio_talk_Aefvue_Fa]

No horsepop, more to come.

[Portia]

To be clear –

An owner can be responsible for drug violations along with the trainer, if the owner has possession and control or care of the horse. Whoever has care of the horse, even partial, can and will be held responsible –regardless of who does or does not sign the entry form.

Signing the form merely creates a rebuttable presumption that that person has care of the horse and is therefore responsible for what is found in its system. That presumption, however, is subject to rebuttal by the evidence, and liability can be expanded by the evidence.

If the trainer or coach doesn’t sign the form, but the evidence shows that person did have some care of the horse, then that person can be held responsible. Say the trainer or coach just meets the horse at the show, if the evidence shows the coach took the horse behind the barn for a little “tune-up” prior to a class, that person can be held responsible, either alone or along with whoever else may have had care of the horse.

Equally, if the owner or rider doesn’t sign the form, but the evidence shows that person fed the horse or gave it meds, then that owner or rider will be held responsible, either alone or along with the trainer. Signing the form is only the starting point for assigning responsibilty, not the end of it.

That is a point that Dr. Allen, Ned Bonney, and other members of the D&M and Hearing Committees have made very clear in open meetings at the Annual Meeting and otherwise.

[Joanie_s_Pass]

The article is actually about Paul V. wife and the Tyco scandal, but it gives specific detail on Paul V. legal issues at the end.

Just in case anyone was interested.

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/nyc-nydeco153585140dec15,0,370328.story?coll=ny-nynews-headlines

[Finzean]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buryinghill1:

I’d suggest promoting new standards of judging hunters (and hunter seat equitation). The hunter ring is starting to look like the western pleasure division (except for Ms. Betty, of course, galloping down to the jumps-god love her ). Get the hunter judges to accept a head shake, a tail wring and even a gentle romp. Would you want to hunt a “dead quiet” horse? Not me!
It’s SO ironic that quite a few from the licensed hunter judges are going down – I wish this were a wake up call

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen to that! I’d love to see things get a little retro. One of my British friends was commenting on the bizarre aspect of hunters (show hunters) that don’t hunt - she just can’t get around the idea of a “show hunter”. Anyway… Granted I wouldn’t want my $75K show hunter galloping around hell bent for leather, but I, too, get sick of seeing the coma-type lopey rounds.

Personally, I have a couple of clients who need the pharmaceuticals infinitely more than their horses!!!

Fine I give up, do it your way: heels up, eyes down!!

[NinaL_aka_Chrissy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JER:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> My point was that I may not be able to get the vet quickly (small time person taking back seat to big time barn with 30 horses to inject) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That ‘big time barn’ should stay at home until those 30 horses in need of injections are sound and healthy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahhh, but how do you know they are not sound and healthy.

We can debate the merits (and I by no means advocate using medications in this way) but there are many trainers that routinely administer Bute and Ketofen as allowed by the rules of USEF. The Ketofen is administered IV and Bute may be given IV so under the proposed rule the show vet would have to come and give the injection at the right time.

The medications are administered with the intent to alleviate minor aches and pains or “just in case” the horse suffers a minor injury.

Some people administer Legend prior to competition. In some cases the horse is at the show days before he/she actually competes.

Now, I am not really too sure this does much good (kind of like taking an aspirin just in case you get a headache) and the horse sure is not going to say it helps in so many words. Personally, I would not do it but I can see the side of those that do.

Nina

[Silly_Mommy]

I just heard back from someone in attendance at WPB. Apparently it was pretty funny watching the suspended surveying their client’s trips over the fence from the village. He said, as has been mentioned, “they aren’t really affected, they just send in subs”…

Where’s DMK’s line???

Most people who go around fanning the flames of crises are themselves the problem.

http://groups.msn.com/WolfdenFarm/shoebox.msnw

[dab]

How long does it normally take to post changes to the list? What surprises me is there have been 2 updates posted since Friday (on 11/11 and 11/14), and neither of them contains the names of trainers I’ve heard have already been suspended –

When was the deadline for the Dec/Jan Equestrian Magazine?

In my area, I can see clients are leaving the suspended trainers – I know 2 trainers who’ve picked up several new clients – These new clients have pre-paid for WEF already – Several aren’t making any commitments beyond WEF, so I wonder if the old trainer/client relationships will resume after the trainers come off suspension –

11/16 – Oops – Just checked the list again, and it has today’s date on it – I suspect USAE displays the current date, but it does not appear that they update the list that frequently –

[This message was edited by dab on Nov. 16, 2003 at 12:40 PM.]

[This message was edited by dab on Nov. 16, 2003 at 08:27 PM.]

[Flash44]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
I was going to say that I didn’t think that the reason horses are drugged is to meet impossible judging standards (not in hunters), but rather to meet impossibly poor riding demands. I really wonder how many 3’6"+ horses are drugged. In the professional divisions and the A/O’s, the riding gets the results (at least, so I think, in my current idealistic state). It’s those lower fences and weekend warriors that need more and more artificial assistance these days, methinks.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. However, I would imagine that the horses doing the more strenuous divisions would be more likely to get the feel no pain drugs.

[Moesha]

I thought she meant because of a recent death in the family…