That is an extremely astute analogy Molly99. I think many of us would concur. Cheating will happen, there will always be someone who will try and beat the odds. But cheating is cheating, pure and simple.
IMHO, the question of the standard that hunters should be judged by is really separate from the drugging issue. You change the standard, some people will find a different way to cheat to win. You only have to look at the various threads about various disciplines on this board that all different terrible things are being done by different groups to meet different standards. If the standard was to be lively rather than quiet, there would be trainers who jabbed their hunters with a cattle prod right before they went into the ring. It would just be uppers instead of downers.
The way I see it the only solutions are to make the risks outweigh the rewards: by enforcing the rules with harsh penalties, and even more importantly, by making it unacceptable, socially and business-wise, to illegally drug horses for performance. (I recently hears a report on NPR about how social norms improve compliance with laws which was really interesting, and made a lot of sense.) Now as to practical suggestions as to how to make that happen, I am at a bit of a loss.
“It is not possible to conquer a horse by force. How then a nation?” (White Horse Fei Fei)
(formerly known as kml)
Good start to the convention. But can you see what the line at the vet’s truck would look like! 
Thanks for keeping us updated - I’d love to hear more.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blinky:
What is the use for Reserpine?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Reserpine is a tranquilizer. It has a legitimate use for horses on stall rest who ar at risk of injuring themselves becuase they won’t stay calm and still.
The one noticeable (and ptentially dangertous)side effect I am aware of is really bad diarrhea (sp?).
Given that the “buzz” was all about psychotropic drugs, but the suspensions are for reserpine, I wonder if either
a) the psychotropics contain reserpine
or
b) the psychotropics produce some of the same metabolites as reserpine, and therefore “test” as reserpine.
Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
Lindemann, Ward, and the others suspended from that same set of incidents are still suspended.
Sandstone,
What reason was this stuff given to all of these horses for in the first place?
~~ Does killing time hurt eternity?~~
Chanda, I’m not up on my FEI procedures, but IIRC, you can’t just put a syringe of anything into your horse yourself while you are in the restricted area at an FEI competition. Adequan/Legend would be fine for a horse who is competing at FEI as an ongoing maintenance thing, but I’m not sure that you could give one at the competition without the supervision of one of the official veterinarians.
One thing I have seen is people giving very tired horses IVs of various sorts after cross-country, but IIRC, always by one of the official competition vets.
FEI rules at at http://www.horsesport.org/ if anyone feels like sleuthing.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ruby G. Weber:
Don’t they already store samples?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes Rube 
“…And friends, somewhere in [Lexington] enshrined in some little folder, is a
study in red of my [stored sample]…”
(credit to Arlo for the inspiration)
[This message was edited by buryinghill1 on Dec. 18, 2003 at 11:44 AM.]
Ah, but Dana, You know more than I do – you know who has had a hearing recently! 
BTW, I thought I saw you at the Houston shows, but one time I had to help with my beast, and the other time you were tied up with PP, et al. Sorry I missed you there.
Well, I agree with you and fortunately for me I don’t believe in using horses which need regular bute for maintenance. Especially, since I know that I don’t function nearly as well even on aspirin.
I would not want an unsuspecting rider to depend on the horse being smart enough to keep them from getting killed and the horse has been dulled so he doeesn’t know they can’t make that fence. I depend on the basic survival intincts of the horse to save the beginners.
Fortunately, I have not had therefore to live in terror of being found with drugged horses. You see I not only preach but I practice the same philosophy.
Battle Scarred Veteran
clearound - I wasn’t so much as commenting on your post as making a general statement. I agree that both NNTs and BNTs take the easy way out. It is my feeling that the athletes that go to the Olympics should be as squeaky clean as possible. I realize that it doesn’t always happen that way. Who knows what they give 14 year old girls to keep them going in gymastics through a week of competition? I would like the national federation to choose the most honest and best athletes. I just feel very sad that Todd Minikus chose to use reserpine and has been chosen in the past to represent our country. I feel worse that Robert Dover, Rainier and Jane Clark - a past president - have been involved. Is there nothing sacred to these people? While I understand most of what C. Boylen has written, and agree with much of the logic, I do get tired of the mixed-up feed bucket excuse. In order to come down on those who get around the drug testing by using overdoses of naturally occurring substances, undetectable substances, and LTD, perhaps the federation should have some sort of way to penalize these actions, specifying under abuse, poor sportsmanship, cheating, etc. There should be easier ways to report such actions than there is now (having to be in the class?) Maybe any substance that is illegal or should only be given by a vet cannot be found in possession on the show grounds, and then maybe there should be raids on tack rooms, trailers, cars to collect samples of all substances. I don’t know what the solution is. I’m just brainstorming. As Chanda wrote, you can’t legislate morality. You can, however, do your best to make a statement in favor of it.
I guess what pisses me off royally is when all these nationally known and supposedly reputable trainers and riders are penalized for illegal drugging of horses and other trainers still get their panties in wad when owners “pry” into the care of their horse. I have a friend who told her BNT over and over that their horse did NOT jump on Robaxin - he’d stop. At her daughter’s last show as a junior, the trainer gave it to the horse anyhow, without the knowledge of my friend or her daughter. The horse stopped at her last show. Now this a trainer that has appeared in COTH, PH, etc. Who the hell can you trust? Most trainers get upset when an owner wants to know “too much” about his or her horse stating often that it is not the owner’s place and questioning why the owner questions her horsemanship. HUH? Excuse me. Isn’t the owner just looking out for his or her financial and emotional investment. Isn’t that being a responsible owner? As an owner, I feel that I am ultimately responsible for the well-being of my horse. I am sick of trainer holier-than-thou attitudes. This seems to be the only industry that does not need to answer to “audits,” so to speak. I am a teacher; I get observed. A lawyer has the bar. A doctor has to take out malpractice insurance. All companies get audited at some point. The horse industry seems to be the only one where the professionals do not need to answer to anyone. Get over it. Of course, that’s just my opinion, I could be wrong.
“When I bestride him, I soar, I am a hawk: he trots the air; the earth sings when he touches it; the basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes.”
– Shakespeare, Henry V
Hi Flash.
You must have missed the next sentence in my quote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A horse in the pre-greens is normally being ridden by a professional or other very skilled rider <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
When you quoted me and then said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Many horses in the pre adults are green horses being ridden by AMATEURS who just happen to be too unwealthy to have the horse campaigned in the pregreens by a pro. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So that adult amateur who can’t afford or chooses not to pay a professional to campaign their horse in the pre-greens is probably in that other category I mentioned. I would certainly consider an amateur who campaigns their own horse in the pre-greens to be a well skilled rider.
So the issue is…exactly…?
Unless of course you are trying to start a flame about people who have professionals ride their greenies. If so, carry on!
LondonHannahKirsche
Gryphon Bay & foal on the WAY!!!
ALR check your PT’s
Stormwatch
Ducati
What do Magnesium and Calcium do? Other than making the horse quiet, of course. Is it injected? What does it do to make them quiet? Does it have any other side effects? As in, if you saw a horse going around is there a way to tell if its been given these? I’ve never heard of anyone giving that stuff to their horses to make them quieter. That’s disgusting!
Well, if I’m grading an essay or poem that has certain requirements, then, yes, I do break up the scoring into a rubric. Certain percentages apply to particular requirements.
“When I bestride him, I soar, I am a hawk: he trots the air; the earth sings when he touches it; the basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes.”
– Shakespeare, Henry V
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
…As for that FEI testing, yea, a herd of folks got busted for using a commonly used European herbal that was even labeled “FEI approved”. Not that it was approved, but that obviously whatever testing process they use over there didn’t turn it up. Meanwhile here it tested as reserpine, reserpine-like or not reserpine, depending on the lab in question. So I would say there is a leetle bit of discrepancy between Europe and the US!
“I used to care, but things have changed…” Bob Dylan<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
which points out another reason that the testing is so expensive
{like the USAD (anti-doping) the Fed’s labs have to keep improving their methods to stay up with the changes in the methods of the druggers)
“That lowdown scoundrel deserves to be kicked to death by a jackass, and I’m just the one to do it,” --Texas congressional candidate John F. Parker.
Having just received this month’s Equestrian magazine, the part that makes me sad is the horses named. Social Secretary and Monte Cristo are supposed to be among the top in their divisions and to hear they were medicated at Harrisburg and the National certainly taints our world. You immediately suspect all their winnings and one has to wonder how this affects the HOTY standings from last year.
I understand where you would want to raise the drug test fee and have more horses tested, but why should everyone have to pay for those who cheat. Anyone who is found with a positive test should be fined (and not just a $250.00 slap on the wrist) and have to pay to have all their horses tested at every show for a year. Both owner and trainer should have to pay - as an owner you would be more apt to stay on top of what your horse gets and the money involved might actually punish a top trainer.
I think a lot of people forget that in many cases trainer and student like and trust each other, not to mention that special bond that should exist between a teacher and their student.
If you are sitting here thinking there is NO way you would stay with that trainer, I guess the best way is to imagine if YOUR trainer (assuming you have a great relationship with them) showed up on that list tomorrow. What would you do? Would it be a hard decision either way? Would you act on it immediately or would you think about it for a while?
Honestly, I don’t know how I would react if put in that position, but I know human nature is to think the best of our friends and not to abandon them when the chips are down. I’m sure that plays a roll in some people’s actions.
“I used to care, but things have changed…” Bob Dylan
Sparky22
I can understand a legitimate mistake. In that case I wouldn’t leave the barn either. But what we’re talking about here is not the same.
We’re discussing the suspension/fining of 25 of the nations top trainers and riders for deliberately injecting an illegal anti-psychotic into their customer’s horses for the purpose of improving performance.
What we are hearing in reply is that this is OK. That the customers think this is appropriate and they will continue to board and train with these same trainers. Even though it is ILLEGAL.
I realize that they do not care what others may think or say about them. That is certainly their prerogative but it is mine to look at their actions when or if the time ever comes that I am thinking of buying or selling a horse and that owner or trainer is involved.
How can any of their clients ever believe these trainers when they say, I’ve found the perfect horse for you. What do they ask then? With or without drugs?
I had discussed with a friend of mine who’s daughter rode with Don Stewart about putting my daughter into his program. Would I even consider it now? Of course not. Will I ever advise anyone to ride with him again? Of course not.
I’m sure my personal opinion does not matter at all to him. But I’m entitled to it. And I’m entitled to be able to show my horses in classes free of cheating trainers and do-not-care-owners.
I’m going to start a new thread in off course about this idea.
