Your statement fascinates me. How do you tell a horse is “enhanced” when you’re judging? How do you differentiate between a horse that was “enhanced” and one that was lunged for two hours?
uh, DH, you need to come over and SEE these barns…LOL!!! Tack room, yeah, feed or meds room??? uh, no… CLEAN and properly hung tack, uh, no, only before the shows… Believe me, I have seen all the meds at these two place - both in and out of the house - as my horses managed to get themselves hurt alot 
- and, there isn’t anything besides a few packets of bute and antibiotics… No ace, no banimine (I asked about banimine for a horse that was colicking, and, again, they looked at me like I was crazy!)… no dex (Ann doesn’t even know what it is!) no robaxin (ditto), certainly no reserpine, no anything… YES, there is at least one BNT who has been nailed by the FEI for doping (he was the coach of the Young Rider’s Jumping Team - they lost all their medals…) and yes there is a lot of “Calm & Cool” type products (with valerian root or trypthothane or plain herbs), which people make no bones about using, especially with their babies and maybe low level showing, but generally… no… (And I can attest to Valerian root having the opposite effect on some horses…)
Lots of sound horses - and Ms Hunter, while I DO definitely agree with you re blacksmiths, there are a lot of sound horses here whose shoeing jobs would make you CRINGE!!!
It’s OUT! Linda Allen’s 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! 
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiramit:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lucassb:
Tiramit, you might want to check out “Equine Drugs and Vaccines, A Guide for Owners and Trainers,” written by Eleanor Kellon, VMD. My copy was published in 1995 and has been a fantastic reference, as it gives both the trade name as well as the generic, discusses the action of the drug, typical usage, possible side effects, duration of effect etc. It also contains information about what class each drug is, and (per rules circa mid 90s) whether the drug is permitted under a variety of competition rules.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Many thanks, Lucassb! I’ve been searching for a drug reference book for years, but haven’t stumbled across that one yet. That sounds like what I’ve been wanting. Wonder if it has been updated? To my frustration, most vet books seem to offer an overly simplified description of only the most common drugs (yes, I know banamine is good for colic 
). I’ll have to check out Dr. Kellon’s book - any excuse to add to my collection! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You are very welcome. It does not seem to have been updated as far as I can tell… I figure it is still useful as most of the stuff I wanted to know more about falls into the “basic” category (ie, why would you choose bute vs. aspirin … what to look out for if you have to give that banamine for a colic episode… etc.)
“It is good to have an end to journey towards; but it is the journey that
matters, in the end.”
-Ursula K. Le Guin
mbp - I have a (now) funny story as far as “mistakes go”. I once had a client that I wrote a prescription for Albuterol for her pony. She went to the pharmacy and picked up the Albuterol and also her sons prescription for Ritalin. When she got home she gave her pony the Ritalin and her son the Albuterol 
. You can imagine the panicked call I got a few minutes after the mistake was realized . I made her call 911 just to make sure her son would be ok - which he was.
Unfortunately, We live in a drugged society. All one has to do is watch T.V. and see all the drug ads. There’s a solution for everything in a little pill. It’s no wonder vets, trainers and owners look for an easier way. How many people do you know that are on mood enhancing drugs, whether they need them or not?
But Chanda… the point is is that jep’s horse is NOT sound.
And personally, I now own a horse that is retired and has been retired since 15 because of the continued concussion of showing and jumping when she was made “sound.” Unfortunately for me I guess, I got her when she could not longer be made sound with injections, nerving, etc.
Personally, I applaud jep for treating the horse and making him appear sound (lets be honest just like a nerving-- the pain is just alleviated not the destruction and the damage to the nerves and joints inside) but do i think a horse such as this should be subjected to show year round with a little bute the occasional injection so the owner can show in the hi-aa and the low-ao all year round-- i would have to say no. The occasional low schooling show, or taking him out every now and then is one thing… schooling him at home… but I do not think that the problem she is describing is what I would consider a minor issue.
christina
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tackpud:
Don’t all vets have to maintain a membership with a governing medical body (state association)? Maybe a whisper in the ear of the veterinary higher ups would do something.
Of course what trainer is going to give the name of their vet to a medical association if it means that vet would be warned off and the trainer couldn’t get their illegal meds anymore?!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
State veterinary association membership is not mandatory.
(It’s kinda like USEF membership–it’s a club. )
One must be licensed to practice, but, in general, in order for the state licensing authority to take action, there has to be wither a complaint from an employee, a client (about their animal, not something they heard about the DVM) or legal action by the authorities for some criminal act.
Prescribing reasonable amounts of drugs which the client then turns around and uses for purposes other than those for which they were prescribed isn’t going to get the state board to yank a license.
Unashamed member of the Arab clique…just settin’ on the Group W bench.
Thanks-I forgot about the Horse Show Management. Unpaid debt must be passed on to us in the form of the Office Fee.
Rockin Horse - I’ve had one actually fall to his knees standing at the ring - just fell asleep! I can only imagine what people think of me!!!
I just got back from Our Farm…an A in Pa. This is the most enties this show has ever had. There were 23 pre-greens…tomorrow over 40 childrens. Every class has HUGE entries. The talk of the show is “level playing ground”. Even though alot of the suspended people weren’t there…it was well made up by other people. The shows don’t miss them and neither do the other entries.
My second point…and I agree with Linda Allen, is that I think the only way to stop the horrible scheduals these horses keep is to start averaging for quality. Say, out of a number of shows, average the points. There would be your top horses…and you wouldn’t have to sour them in the point struggle.
When people feel there is fairness, more will show and everyone will win…especially the horse.
Mary Ps…my pre-green in his 3rd rated show was reserve champion out of 23.
The difference between disciplines is clear, but the hunter industry should be able to “borrow” certain aspects to improve themselves.
The overall impression is EXTREMELY important to the hunter trip. However, it’s wrong when you see, time and time again, the blah A/A hunter who barely makes it over the jump because it’s so dull beating the one who’s a better jumper and mover but may have a little playful head toss or tail swish in the corner. That’s just wrong - it’s not what the discipline started out as, only the way it’s ended up.
Instead of assuming we know what the “R” judges want and don’t want, why don’t we ask them? They may be interested in a change…
Actually the list is fairly current…it has a bnt suspended from 11/1/03-3/?/04.
~Jenna & Beethoven~
http://community.webshots.com/user/jlm179
Godiva - I remember the years when we started showing with Keswick and James River and when was the VA State Fair that used to be in Richmond? It was so nice to have long breaks between the shows to learn the basics and become more competitive. “Those were the days” 
A question for everyone - have any of you actually seen the list and what these trainers are suspended for? Are we way off base here - could there have been another reason for suspensions? There are many ways to get introuble - not just drugs. Just some food for thought.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
Most owners are not involved, nor should be involved (due to lack of knowledge) in the medication or preparation of their horse.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Humbug. They bloody well ought to be involved. That’s not the same thing as being in charge of calculating the dosage of a drug being given for a genuine therapeutic purpose.
Same thing goes about being knowledgeable about preparation and turnout. Fine to employ someone to do the work, but a horseman knows what that work entails.
If you own a horse, and you want to be thought of as a horseman, vs. someone who rides, you need to learn about managing the beasts, and you need to learn what type of people you are paying to perform the hands on care of those beasts.
If you show a horse, and you sign off on the entry form as the owner, then you are accepting responsibility for adhering to the rules. That means you need to know what’s going on back at the barn.
I have little sympathy for the willfully ignorant in this area, as it is the horse that suffers for their ignorance.
Unashamed member of the Arab clique…just settin’ on the Group W bench.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
First, you need to find out all the facts regarding the drug suspensions. Trainers themselved DID NOT have access to this drug. Keep that in mind when throwing your flames. Someone had to give it to the trainers.
Also, I do not believe that Mr. Stewart’s suspension has anything to do with a drug infraction. I believe it is in relation to an incident at Capital Challenge last year. Also, probably the reason his horses are not suspended either. The horses can show, but just not under his ownership. The only times horses are listed under the suspension list is when the owner is suspended for a violation directly relating to horses.
I would suggest all that feel owners should know EVERYTHING going on in their horses life, think back to the beginning of their involvement with horses. Did you know everything that went on, or did you trust the person you hired to teach you? Yes, many people want to learn and ask questions but not all. That is one of the great things about our sport, you don’t HAVE to know every little thing to be successful. Doesn’t that mean you are a bad person, NO. It just means that you look at this as a HOBBY, not a profession.
Flash, those 3ft riders are the support system of our business. They buy expensive horses for themselves to show in the adults, and expensive horses for their trainer to show in the green or workings, or in the grand prix. They pay bills on those horses for their training, care, and show fees. They DON’T, as you say, make any money. They get their satisfaction from their sucess. Unsatisfied customers leave barns, or leave the business entirely.
Also, there are horses that are investments. No one said they had to be GOOD investments. Yes, they are probably the most risky venture in which you can put money. But, they are also an extremely lucrative enterprise for the very lucky. Las Vegas survives on those economics, so does the horse industry. A horse sale not only creates income for the owner, but also for the professionals involved in the deal. There are also those of us, like myself, who invest our time and money into breeding and producing horses to sell. There are those that buy young green horses to produce into made horses to sell. There are trainers that buy horses themselves that they think they can improve to sell. There are owners that spend money on horses for their children, and expect to see their money back when those children age out and their horses are sold. What you are losing sight of is the fact that this is a big business, and not a hobby, and it affects many people.
[This message was edited by C.Boylen on Nov. 12, 2003 at 03:42 PM.]
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiramit:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buryinghill1:
Ever wonder about the training methods (starting as weanlings) to which you’re not privy? Teaching a youngster to jump clean is quite an art (be it an indoor school in Ireland, or elsewhere). That’s a subject some folks need to read up on. Just why are these youngsters snapping their wheels and trying so hard? That would be an educational field trip. Forget medication.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok, I’ll play clueless for a moment and ask in what way did intend for this to be taken by readers? I could read into it in one of 2 ways:
- they do more free jumping and training so the horses learn how to jump on their own without a rider and build the proper muscling so they won’t incur as many injuries (which is something I’ve lamented we don’t do more of here - only one of my coaches actually had a permanent jumping chute, and he was a foreigner), or
- that there is some sort of “alternative”, perhaps abusive, training going on?
I’m not trying to be anything but curious because I read your post twice and thought both ways. You just don’t know on this thread!
…
“Whether you think you can or think you can’t - you are right.” -Henry Ford<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yea, the have an electrified wire right infront of the jump. They hit a button, it shoots dirt up, causing the horses to spook up and jump more clean.
Look closley at those pictures of horses free jumping from Europe next time. There is dirt that is shooting up, but NOT in the direction it would if the horse just kicked dirt up as it took off from the ground.
Why D’ya Do It?
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> CAN WE SAY READ FOR COMPREHENSION…
READ… FOR… COMPREHENSION… <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Darkerhorse, I haven’t always seen eye to eye with you but this is hilarious 
These words need to be posted as an icon with the smiley faces for ease of use - would shorten a lot of threads!
Back to the thread - after 11 pages, I still am confused. Help me out here, people:
-
Both Don Stewart, Jr. and Todd Minikus have been named on this BB as being on “The List.” To the best of my knowledge, only DS is actually on a list at this point. TM is in the realm of rumour until publication by an official source. Personally I am not comfortable naming names until the official list comes out, no matter how curious I may be!
-
After 11 pages I still don’t know the reason for the suspension(s). Psychotropic drugs? Or illegal NSAID/‘painkiller’ use re: soundness issues? Which one? Or, as others have posted, this may not be drug-related at all?
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The hunter ring is starting to look like the western pleasure division (except for Ms. Betty, of course, galloping down to the jumps-god love her ). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
God love YOU, bhill!
No, not worried about anyone’s feelings. It’s John Bragg, six month suspension starting 01/01/04. I was curious because I didn’t see any of his clients’ horses on the list, but maybe I overlooked them. It’s a long list!
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by barnie:
So if your vet went and testified for you at your hearing, then he would be a liar also?? There is zero tolerance for some drugs no matter the circumstances.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just recently there was a group of people who tested positive for resperine who got small fines and no suspension, among them Margie Goldstein-Engle. Course, she did have to return a 5-figure prize.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>My godmother once attempted to put oil in her car, and ended up putting it in the radiator. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well I think your godmother should be banned.
As for your question about the Florida circuit, some guy named Dave won the first big $ GP at Winterhaven in the 60’s, so I think we can place the genesis of the winter circuit around 1960.
