SaddlefitterVA, I have to admit it took me a bit by surprise to see all those B. Ward horses listed as I know his history. I might have been tempted to count them too. 
Terry
PS: BLBGP, I don’t know the answer to that. Just saw his name on the list.
I can give them the benefit of the doubt…once.
Hope I don’t see their names again…or it changes.
Still think it beyond the pale when a leading owner and provider of Olympic mounts and her rider get caught in something this STUPID if it was a misunderstanding…and can FEI horses use Isox at FEI events like this???
Like I said, I’m an owner and I would be livid. Maybe forgive it once, but the second time? NOT.
Hopefully they were just ignorant…but where’s the excuse for that?
The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That’s the way it is.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by devildog87:
And these people are TRUSTING their horses’ care to people on cocaine?
I am sorry, but if you spend tons of money on your horse, on showing it and on everything else, why in the world would you trust a drug addict with your horses care?
[QUOTE]
GOOD POINT!! Why in the heck would anyone entrust their expensive horses with a cocaine addict/user trainer or groom? Sorry, if an owner knowingly entrusts their horses with these kind of people, they run the risk that mistakes will happen. They’re willing to accept the risk? Fine. Then don’t cry if something goes wrong and punishments result.
I don’t buy it that the trace amount of cocaine on someone’s hands will affect a drug test. It’s yet another convenient excuse. However, seeing as some use it as another excuse, it can easily be argued that it is their own fault for having let these people handle their animals in the first place. Excuses, excuses.
Why is ANYONE making excuses? I just don’t get it, I really don’t! Do you want show horses out there to have to go through this? I cannot understand why anyone is trying to explain away the hideous act of knowingly (and yes, that’s what it is) drugging horses with cocaine and any other type of substances. I just cannot understand it.
No. The rules are crystal clear for anyone with an above average reading and comprehension level.
“I used to care, but things have changed…” Bob Dylan
1000 entries on this thread thus far!!!
“Remember: You’re A Customer In A Service Industry.”
“Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies,and SunnieFlax Cliques”
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J. Turner:
A nurse friend and I looked up the two drugs mentioned above in her drug reference book and the two are noted NOT to be mixed. Both, I think, are anti-psychotics.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jessicaseamus
“When I bestride him, I soar, I am a hawk: he trots the air; the earth sings when he touches it; the basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes.”
– Shakespeare, Henry V<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My Clinical Handbook of Psychotropic Drugs lists phenobarbitol as an anticonvulsant and prolixin as an antipsychotic.
Thinking about this stuff makes my head swim…
SSS - it could be just me but I LOVE watching the hunters who love doing their job … when the pro can loop their reins down a line and the horse marches on down and jumps the snot out of the jump … WOW … those are the horses that might do a WOW themselves and play for a stride after landing as they know they jumped great … to me it way more exciting than watching a rider who nevers lets the horse do their job by ‘riding’ every stride.
We’ve watched on tape a couple of the rounds that scored 100 (one was Oczar’s) and there were things in it that according to your criteria would be considered ‘rider lapse’ … but it was a great trip to watch and the judges must have thought so too! 
I have been told that, for caffeine to test at a level that would affect the horse, you would have to have given a horse CASES of Coke Cola.
People are not getting set down for feeding a horse animal crackers or a peppermint or what ever. Let’s be real. People are getting set down for DRUGGING horses with the intent of altering their behavoir.
That is why hearings are held and people are not set down based solely on the results of drug tests alone. USA Eq tries to make sure that Suzie Q is not suspended for feeding her horse a Chocolate Eclair. People who have given horses DRUGS are set down.
It seems that the only remaining issue is “Did they intend to drug the horse which came up positive, or did they intend to drug another horse…”
“<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size=”-1">quote:</font><HR> IN ANIMALS
Common side effects include, colic, gastrointestinal upset, mild diarrhea that may last for days, and sweating over the back and hind legs. Signs of sedation include depression, droopy eyes, and a dropped penis.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Um, I’m missing something, Betsy…what part of the above is “logical”?
/as far as horses being “unwittingly” drugged, I have heard that someone with cocaine on their fingers can pat your horse or feed it a handful of sugar and your horse will test positive! Could this be true???
I have to be blunt here…
DH - Your horse does not have a bunch of years left to show and a bunch of years left as a pleasure horse. He will probably (due of mismanagement) founder, colic or succumb to some other painful, fatal malady. If not, you will probably cause one of those joints you so brazenly inject to become infected. Lots of horses live through these infections, but their careers are over. And if your horse is lucky enough to avoid the infection, he will then live the rest of his life with the discomfort of ulcers caused by the NSAIDS.
Do you really want this for your horse, your partner?!?!?!? He’s only in the middle of his life at 15; don’t you want him to be happy WELL past his 20th birthday?
BTW - Most vets aren’t so callous about the use of Dex. They usually “save” it for when it’s really needed, i.e. severe allergic reactions. What would happen if your horse had one of those the day after you gave him his “coctail”?
findeight,
That case has been discussed extensively on the dressage forum, if you are interested in seeing more opinions.
Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
What if those who have had prior “convictions” for drug rule infractions had to have the vet give the shots?
Do you ever feel like the hands of fate are giving you the finger?
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stono Ferry:
I’ve been reading this thread with some interest but the following quote is what prompted me to post:
Darker Horse says…
"Someone suggested steroids to fix his appetite. But I know the horse well enough to know for some reason he just didn’t like the food anymore, and I will not give a horse steroids. It makes the NUTTY. LOL. "
DH- what exactly do you think dex is? You’ve repeatedly said you give your horse dex- it’s time to get a clue- dex is short for dexamethasone which is a corticosteriod (yes I said steriod).
OK, back to reading with interest.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Its not an anabolic steroid. That’s what I mean. Dex doesn’t make horses ‘INSANE.’ LOL
Why D’ya Do It?
The need for archive records of past violations is part of being able to do your own due diligence when looking for a trainer or rider.
I do not , as a rule, trust word of mouth in the horse community. Even from my own friends.
A groups of blind men patting an elephant will tell you something different about their experience.
I prefer to make my decisions based on my own findings. Being able to ask the USEF what the history is could be part of that research.
This facet is something I am very much for.
_\]
– * > hoopoe
The ancient Greeks did not write obituaries. They only wanted to know if you had a passion.
ClemsonGraduateRider,
I think you guys are missing the point here.
Besides the fact that it’s bad for the horses, these trainers are CHEATING. IT’S ILLEGAL.
(Deleted by me as upon re-reading it, I feel it WAS too harshly worded. I may not agree with certain opinions but I don’t want to start a personal battle.)
It breaks my heart.
[This message was edited by arnika on Nov. 05, 2003 at 07:38 PM.]
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by arnika:
C. Boylen,
quote:
“If you buy a high six-figure, winning horse for a client, and it turns out it doesn’t win on your program (or leaves your client hanging from the rafters), are you going to say,“darn, we made a mistake, oh well, let’s go buy another one”? Or are you going to try to figure out whatever the hell it was that the previous trainer did to get it to the ring?”
“…but they don’t want to know. They want to ride, and enjoy their horses, and show. They want to be able to leave the barn and go for a swim, or lunch, or shopping, not hang around until feeding time to watch what goes in the buckets. These are the people that sponsor shows, and pay their trainers daycare, and purchase horses. We need them. These people support our business. That’s your key word. This is a business, an industry, and it’s a SERVICE industry.”
“People with more knowledge would look at the situation, decide whether or not to believe their trainer’s side of the story, and weigh their options regarding other trainers.”
I don’t know you personally, and I don’t have anything against you personally. I can only go by what you have posted here. If I have misinterpreted these words then I apologize most sincerely. I’m not sure I have.
I keep hearing excuses for using illegal drugs to cheat at horse shows so trainers can keep their clients happy. I realize this will probably go on until the end of time, human nature being what it is. This doesn’t mean that I have to ignore it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
CAN WE SAY READ FOR COMPREHENSION…
READ… FOR… COMPREHENSION…
C.Boylen is NOT advocating the use of illegal substances. She was only talking about why owners should not be held as accountable as the trainer in drug abuse cases. Damn. You are not the brightest bulb are you?
God I am making an assumption here, but I imagine you are some sour grape person who wants every chance to say why you and your trainer are ‘the best’ and that anyone who wins a bunch doesn’t know anything and tranquilizes their horses. Sorry darling, but that just isn’t the case 
KISSES AND HUGS!
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
I LOVE this idea!!! If Horse X is found to be showing on a prohibited substance, then the show vet must drug test Horse X every time he shows for the next 5 years, at THE CURRENT OWNER’s expense…<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
dab and Lord Helpus - how about writing up a rule change proposal? I’d add my name to a list of supporters (if that’s possible when submitting)
“That lowdown scoundrel deserves to be kicked to death by a jackass, and I’m just the one to do it,” --Texas congressional candidate John F. Parker.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But if every horse did what it was naturally suited to do, a huge percentage of the hunters would be doing the jumpers <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And the problem with this is…?
Though I expect there are many horse who are temeramentally more suited to the jumpers, but do not have the agility and scope to do WELL in the jumpers.
Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SydneyS:
I have to be blunt here…
DH - Your horse does not have a bunch of years left to show and a bunch of years left as a pleasure horse. He will probably (due of mismanagement) founder, colic or succumb to some other painful, fatal malady. If not, you will probably cause one of those joints you so brazenly inject to become infected. Lots of horses live through these infections, but their careers are over. And if your horse is lucky enough to avoid the infection, he will then live the rest of his life with the discomfort of ulcers caused by the NSAIDS.
Do you really want this for your horse, your partner?!?!?!? He’s only in the middle of his life at 15; don’t you want him to be happy WELL past his 20th birthday?
BTW - Most vets aren’t so callous about the use of Dex. They usually “save” it for when it’s really needed, i.e. severe allergic reactions. What would happen if your horse had one of those the day after you gave him his “coctail”?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That’s rude since you don’t even know the horse. With the levels of dex I give this horse I know he won’t have problems because of it. I say know because I know about 100 other horses that are fine. Hell we had a horse that did MSG in small juniors, was great until it got calcification in its knees, then became a school horse when it was 25. It was showing still as a sound 25 year old that got minor injections, dex, and bute. It got all of these minor injections, dex, and bute when it was a 9 year old and on.
Injections as needed I will add.
Not injections on a schedule, which is retarded if you ask me. You inject a horse as needed. be it 5 months from the last injection or 2 years from the last injection.
The horse was 37 when we retired it and sent it to live the rest of its life on a sheep farm where some people wanted a pasture pet type horse.
It is still alive as far as I know a year later.
My jumper has NEVER coliced in his entire life that I have had him. We inject his coffin joint and hocks as needed. It usually ends up being a bout 6 months or more inbetween injections. I have a great vet. I have never heard of a joint being infected by this vet, save one joint about 10 years ago on one horse. He does about 100 joints a month, i’d imagine, at the various barns he goes to.
Most good show vets ARE as callous about giving a normal ammount of dex. Their is SUCH a slight risk in a normal ammount of dex, that a good vet would be able to explain this to you.
If you had to give dex only for hives, the D & M board would force you to still fill out a report. They don’t. They use the same rules and treat it as a basic drug like bute.
My horses also get gastrogaurd at shows because they do get bute. Bute is bad for their stomaches. I’d imagine not much worse than alleave, and how many people take that every single day? The gastrogaurd at the horse shows (esp if we are doing a week or more at a time) is something I think everyone should do. Even if just because of the stress from not being fed on a certain schedule, and going to a show, and medication- if you give medication.
If I had any problems with the medications, of course I would reevaluate the medications that I give my horse.
After 5 years of having this now older horse I have had zero problems. The horse has never refused a jump, the horse has never been lame enough to jump, he just isn’t young- ie wear and tear of age, which is why the horse gets medication)…
My young pregreen horse gets nothing at the start of a show. If the footing is hard, or if we have had to lunge him because he gets fresh (I hate lunging but sometimes this horse needs a few minutes to calm down since he is so green on colder days) he might get 5cc-10cc of bute )ie one gram or two grams). In a few years if he needs some dex or perhaps some arquel instead so be it. He is very sound now, so I doubt he will need that for a LONG time.
Everything I own gets adequan and/or legend once a week.
I have a pretty good program for my horses that my vet and my trainer and I agree on.
We use no illegial drugs. We play by the rules. We monitor every single horse. We take their temperature twice a week. If the horses show any sign of slight lameness that can’t be fixed by a good hacking and it is more than the ‘old age wear and tear’ or ‘showing on bad footing’ and something more than the legal ammount of bute plus some dex can cover up then they are too lame to show.
The medications that are legal will NOT mask a really lame horse. They might just hide a hitch or the wear and tear that horses get after showing for a few years.
Jumping is BAD for horses. I doubt that any horse that is broke enough and has been to enough shows to be considered made realy is 100% comfortable every single day. Jumping is just not good for a horse.
Should we just not jump our horses? Or do dressage with their endless 20 meter circles I KNOW those horses have to get hock injections if they are broke enough to do well).
I do agree with what weatherford said that horses need to be fit. A good program is a must. I think they do need to jump small jumps a few times a week. In total i’d say my horses jump about 10-15 smaller jumps 2 times a week, and I have more of a formal lesson once a week on each of them. My jumper jumps a bit less than that because he does do some hillwork, and I feel that works the same muscles. The pregreen horse can benefit from jumping 2 small short times a week plus one more formal lesson a week so he can get more made.
I think it is important for the horses bones and ligaments to be right. I think horses ‘jumping muscles’ have to be ‘educated’ horses have jumping muscles. It is important that the horses are fit all around. To keep a horse sound long term. Mine are. Perhaps my pregreen horse is not as fit as I would like yet, but I think it takes a good year or so for them to fully have the muscles developed and educated to work right (remember, muscles have memory).
Horses need to be hacked for a long time too before they are ready to jump. You have to have a fit horse to be able to show and have it be at its peak. Adequan and legend are something that I think every single horse in the world should be on if you expect them to be sound and stay sound for their longest. They are an imperative part of any program to keep a horse at its best.
But I also think that the legal ammount of NSAIDs and dex are important in the older horses to keep them at their prime.
This horse that I have, my older jumper, was taught to jump by me. I have had him since the start. He is really more of a pet than my other horses that I have had. I wouldn’t ever show him or even jump him if he got to the point where I didn’t think he was sound enough. (not to imply that I would do my other horses if they were not sound, LOL).
This older horse IS sound, just serviceably sound. Almost EVERY horse is only serviceably sound. Very few are 100% sound.
Gastrogaurd is a MUST if you are using any kind of NSAIDs EVER.
We all want the best for our horses.
My vet said that at the medication levels that I give my horses they will be fine. They will not cause long term effects. The horses are not floating in dex. The older one gets 8cc of dex a week. MANY MANY MANY other horses show on dex every single day of the week.
He told me a story that he gave one horse aobut 30cc of dex like 3 times a day or something insane because it was going to die. It saved the horses life. It went on the be fine and show many many more years after the incident.
It really is fine to do, my horses haven’t had problems ever. I’ve seen hundreds of horses through the years from my barn and other barns that get dex the way my older horse does, too. I’ve never heard of one having bad effects. Most of the horses in my barn don’t get dex. They are younger and don’t need it. A few of them do though, my jumper being one of them.
The horses that used to get 10cc of dex everyday almost never had bad effects either. Of course some of them did founder. But NOT all that many. That being said I have never given a horse 10cc of dex in one whole week. I have never done this because there is more of a risk involved. The bad effects of it will show up in a very few ammount of horses at that dose.
I’d be interested in seeing what other people who show a bunch (and most of them prob show more often than I do) say they give their horses. Of course, they aren’t going to post that because they don’t want to be flamed.
The ideal goal is to have a horse show on no medication. If a horse is like barely barely barely sore, the kind of sore that someone who doesn’t know the horse won’t know about and it won’t effect their placings in a horse show, why not give it a gram of bute.
I mean seriously. The horses didn’t ask to jump. I’m sure most of them would rather not jump. The least you can do is make it more comfortable on the 3rd day of showing for them.
I bet some of you would say then it shoudn’t show at all… But then none of the good horses would be able to show if everyone felt like that. Infact, almost none of the horses would show at all in the world. Nothing feels 100% great after jumping for a few days in a row. I doubt any horse is 100% sound after jumping and showing for 4 days in a row.
So. In summary, most vets will agree that the levels of dose that I give my older horse are acceptable and carry a low low low low risk. Keeping a horse very fit is important, as weatherford said (which I feel I do). Most people here don’t give gastrogaurd every single time the horse gets bute for more than a day or two or at shows, which even if they don’t they should due to the stress of getting to a show and being at a show. Joint injections as needed are an important part in keeping a horse sound and happy and healthy. If we didn’t inject horses joints which ones would really be top show horses by the age of 10? Jumping is ust BAD BAD BAD for horses. I’m not saying that if you don’t it is mean. I am not saying I am a top show person at all- infact we just do all of the AA rated shows around (Gulfport, Gala, Germantown, jackson, Atlanta, etc). Nothing more than that really… But we are competitive at that level.
Really, I try to give my horses the best care possible. I don’t think that they would be getting the best care possible if they didn’t get the gastrogaurd at shows, the dex or bute if they need it, the 30 minute loose up hacks in the morning befor the show starts, and the legend and/or adequan weekly.
I just don’t think that what I am doing is inhumane to my horse who really truly loves his job. I really do feel that he is happiest at a horse show, in his tent stall, stuffed with hay, and getting to go out and run around a course.
Oh, and to add what you said about ulcers. About a year ago he was not eating his food very well. We scoped him to see if he had ulcers, which we thought was impossible because he is on gastrogaurd every show due to the medication and the stress of trailering and just showing itself. He had NONE. Read NONE. It turned out he just didn’t like the batch of sweetfeed that we got in that summer. I’m not really sure why, the company said they changed the content of their molasses. We switched him to equine senior (because it had a higher fat content, he was getting up there in age a bit, and some horses seem to like it better) and he loved it. I’m not really sure why he became a picky eater to one specific brand of food- I guess he is spoiled. But he was back to being his hog self when we switched. Someone suggested steroids to fix his appetite. But I know the horse well enough to know for some reason he just didn’t like the food anymore, and I will not give a horse steroids. It makes the NUTTY. LOL.
Why D’ya Do It?
[This message was edited by Darker Horse on Dec. 31, 2003 at 03:50 AM.]
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