THE suspension list

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> My understanding is that a vet suggested the use of X drug for a specific medical condition, told the trainers that they could show the horse again in X days, as it was “not testable” at that point. However, that time frame was not correct, hence the positive tests. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If they were, in fact, giving it for therapeutic purposes, then they should have filed a D&M form. (If they had, it would have been noted in the published suspension report. It wasn’t on the ones that have appeared so far, we will have to wait for the next issue to seea bout the new ones.)

I am also curious as to what sort of “medical condition” warranted a therapeutic treatment that included reserpine.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Janet,

I never said it was reserpine. That was not the drug I was refering too.

The trainers I speak of were just added to the list and not for reserpine.

The medical condition was relating to colic, which is a known use of the drug in question.

Diane- you just described my horse in the above post!!
SSS- I think I ride well enough to correct the happies if I wanted to, but I like my horses to enjoy their job. To do this many of them CANNOT be "ridden"and controlled every footfall. I DID lose some ribbons for letting this particular horse be himself after a particularly good line or jump, because he could spook with the best of them. However, when I rode him every step, and did not allow some expression, he became less careful & would rub the jumps. I opted for some life instead of killing his spirit,which would have to be followed by “making” him jump cleanly.
Most judges did not seem to penalize this. If I was a “teetering” amateur, I can see where this behavior might not be “suitable”,but I like to think that I am above that level by now.
As far as the dog- he had to “bounce” him 4 strides after a jump, at the ingate. I think the head shake was OK.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SydneyS:
WHO could stay married to a horse killer?!?!?!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A Catholic.

A movie that several of us are trying to star in.

And I agree that there are a number of amateurs who are willing to put in the time to produce a horse that they can compete on. Yes, when all is said and done, it may not save us huge chunks of money, but at least we have something to ride and enjoy in the meantime while we’re spending money. Sort of ironic that this is one case where Juniors don’t have the same luxury of time that adults do.

I’m a little bit confused about the posting timing on “the list” on the USEF website. Has anyone else checked recently? The newest names appearing in the latest USEF magazine issue, ie those provided on page 38 of this threat by one poster, are not actually on the website list… why would that be?? I’m confused.

Are there really that many uneducated and clueless owners/clients out there that simply CAN’T accept reality, pressuring the trainers like this?

Seems to me there’s also an issue of owner education… trainers shouldn’t just be about making the horses go well, but about teaching the owners. If trainers insist on controlling every aspect of what goes on with the horse (remember that thread about the BNT who didn’t want clients around when the vet checked on their horses?), how can the owner be expected to have a clue about what the horse can or can’t do?

If the horse owners are educated and intelligent and given the tools to understand how the horse is going, seems like there’d be less pressure (though that would remove some of the control from some of the trainers maybe).

OK, I’m rambling. Never ridden with a BNT, I don’t know how it works. I’ll admit that. But I’m wondering if some of the pressure these trainers are feeling to produce easy rides or whatnot may have been alleviated a bit if the riders/owners had been educated and given better more honest information from the get-go.

I’m confused. This thread is too long and is scrambling my brain so I’m probably making no sense at all. done now


“It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity”
**
formerly known as grog

Ok, I’ve been following this discussion with great interest and have two things that stick out in my mind about the issue.

First, I’m an eventer, but I’ve got friends that do hunters and a couple at a fairly high level, so I’ve paid attention to how they do things, i.e. the differences in barn management and training issues are things that I find very interesting.

The first thing that makes me really sad about the drugging issue – I’ve watched one person who has a horse that really doesn’t need to be tranqued or calmed, work out the dosages that would be needed to give her horse, mostly because she seemed concerned that since most horses showed on it, it would be an advantage that she wouldn’t have if she didn’t do it too.

I think that is a real danger here, even more so than the horses that would be too “high” if they didn’t get a cocktail – is this why you guys are seeing the horses in the ring becoming more and more “deadheaded?” If you take the edge off of an already pretty calm horse, eventually it seems as if they’ll be sleepwalking.

The second thing that jumps out of this discussion at me has been alluded to by a couple of posters. The ponykid’s parents that don’t know enough to know if the trainer is doping the pony, or lungeing it to death, will learn fast, if the pony goes down, or trips with the child and the kid ends up with a broken neck.

No equine liability law will protect someone from being sued if they knowingly put a client on a horse that has either been drugged, or worked to exhaustion. If I were a trainer that engaged in these practices, it would scare me to death. Especially in a state that doesn’t have the protections for your homestead that Florida does. At least here, you wouldn’t lose your house, though you might lose most everything else.

If I were an owner and the trainer was putting other people on my horse that had had a “calming draft” before going in the ring, I’d be quaking in my boots too. The damages awarded to maintain someone who has suffered irrepable damage are astonishing.

It is a risk I darn sure wouldn’t take.

That said, I personally am not in favor of “zero tolerance.” I never travel without bute, banamine, and dex in my medicine box, and I have a good chart that makes it easy to determine what I can and can’t give if my horse is showing. We are careful to fill out med forms if we need to, and I’m even someone who’s used Ace to be able to handwalk a crazy TB and have used Prolixin on both of my horses while they were recovering from injury, though only at home – I’ve never used any tranq away from home.

Would I ride or show them on psychotropic meds? Nope. I value my own neck too much for that. And, I agree with GotSpots, I’m too darn proud to do it. If my formerly nutbar horse has a nice, calm dressage test, its going to be becuase I’ve worked hard to get him there, not because I gave him a shot. I tell you, that high score we got on “submission” two weeks ago is one of my proudest moments since I bought the darn horse. And, I’ve used bute only within the legal limits and only when necessary, (i.e. once when he had a terrible case of hives at a show and something had to be done to bring down the swelling in his neck.)

However, it still makes me sad to see someone wanting to quiet a perfectly lovely quiet horse when he would be ok without it, and the liability situation scares me to death and it makes me wonder how that risk could possibly be worth it. Must be a case of “that won’t happen to me” syndrome.

Libby

Proud member of the Hoof Fetish Clique

[This message was edited by Bensmom on Nov. 06, 2003 at 10:47 AM.]

Or instead of the respective breed being ironed on the horse he could be branded with the logo of his riders favorite cocktail… I belong to the CMWAL organization.

(that’s Captain Morgan with a Lime)

So if your vet went and testified for you at your hearing, then he would be a liar also?? There is zero tolerance for some drugs no matter the circumstances.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Coreene:
Uh huh. And that “real story” is, what, coming from the person who was suspended?

I have nice bridge for sale if you’re interested!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, I was thinking the same thing, Coreene.

Yes, Jair, there are quite a few BNTs who have already received suspensions, but for some reason the USEF site has not listed them publically yet.

One is Mike McCormick (who has admitted it publically and even been quoted about it in Sidelines Magazine) who has been suspended for 10 months for drug violations.

Sonesta Farms - breeding Hanoverian, Knabstrupper and Arabian sport horses.<BR>
“Find something you love & call it work.”

Am I the ONLY one here who feels that this thread is unbelievably scarey???

Granted, I haven’t shown in a dog’s age - but still - although I’m sure such things were going on “way back when”, the heights to which it apparently has arisen today appears to be despicable.

What exactly is the problem with people today?? Is “winning” so important that chemicals become a necessity? Doesn’t anyone showing today have ANY sense of ethics or humanity towards another living being? Is it ALL about ribbons, money, & prestige???

My body is a temple - unfortunately, it’s a “fixer-upper”.

Someone else asked too but would someone mind explaining what happened at Devon (or PT me if you are more comfortable). I had not heard of this until this thread and frankly, now I am curious.


Another Perfect Kappa Rush!!

OK! if we believe in free enterprise and all the advocates of getting rid of the mileage rule propose then who should decide how much is too much for anyone or any horse?

I am a show manager yes! I offer a product I put it on and send out invitations. Anyone who doesn’t want to come doesn’t come and the others do of their own free will.

When any association of people starts determining how much you should do, how much you should spend, how much you should eat or what you have to wear then it’s all over for our way of life. A horse is property just as a wife and kids used to be property and just as slaves were property.

Do we declare animal rights for the horses? Do we give them a vote? Do they have property rights? Maybe they need a forced retirement age!Of course not. We have to assume that someone intelligent enough to have earned enough money to be able to afford a High Performance Horse is also intelligent enough to protect his investment.

Maybe we should just sanction 15 shows a year and those are the only ones that count towards anything. No one would be allowed to show more than 15 times in a year and we pick the shows for them. Then the top 20 horses in each division would be the only horses at the 15 shows and eligible to qualify for that end of the year award.

Unless, you have a high enough average you will not be allowed to show at the 15 shows because they will all be qualifiers or the option is huge free for all open markets with 20 rings running for a week.

That will weed the horses down nicely. Now who will have a horses at home? Who will run barns for new riders? Who will teach? Probably won’t need more than a dozen trainers. Top trainers can find horses to break and train and school them for riders. We should all just be spectators. But, hunter shows are boring so we won’t want to spend the money to see a hunter show.

Now that’s a problem because with so few horses needed who is going to invest their lives in breeding horses? That’s right we can buy them from Europe.

Yes we can and should police drugging and abuses. Yes we can create a fair competition field. Yes we can make rules of operation but no association is my partner and no association has the right to tell me how to spend my money or where to go.

For 20 years we had a simple pleasant system that satisified all the industry needs. Sure some people cheat and lie. Whats’ to keep them from changing the name of the horse after 15 shows if those shows are less than stellar and starting all over with a new name?

How do you know if that average was one horse or three horses using the same ID number? How many horses have gone first year green a bunch of times with new names and owners? How many amaateurs are really amateurs? How many juniors are really professional jockeys?

If you solve the medication problem you will eliminate the pounding because horses that are pounded and lunged for hours or abuzed in other ways just can’t go clean. That’s why zero tolerance for drugs is the way to end it. Yes! it’s too bad that some 3’0" fence people will not be able to compete because their horses are medicated. Maybe, then they won’t buy the crippled 3’0" hoprses on their way down and young horses instead.

Maybe the horses need a forced retirement age, but how would you police it? The simple fact is that horse shows have become people shows and vanity parades. How about just putting the sport back into the equation. How about ratings based on levels of difficulties? How about the good old days when horses and children won their way out and up.

A Maiden wasn’t eligible once it had that single blue ribbon. Where did the maidens go? They moved up!

Points simple c=1 b=double a=quadruple didn’t need a computer to keep track. Three blues got you to the Maclay. Three blues got you to Harrisburg. Championships at any show got you to the Pony Finals. Life was simple; life was good and everyone was happy.

Do we really want to go back to the good old days of unrecognized shows, with no standards, no rules and no one to assist us if we get ripped off by crooked managements selling blue ribbons to the highest bidder.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Nov. 06, 2003 at 01:47 PM.]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If you could not overlook the point, it was not to make excuses for them, but instead to emphasize the fact that making them accountable is difficult as well as being not as effective as you might think.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, of course it’s not effective when the only punishment meted out is a slap on the wrist, a 3-month suspension and oh gee, they miss one whole horse show. So the answer would appear, from any reasonable perspective, to be to make the penalties for horse abuse TRULY threatening to life, limb and property.


“No horse with cart horse blood inside three crosses can stand an extreme test against horses bred for Epsom Downs and the Metairie Course…”
–Marguerite Bayliss, The Bolinvars

Precisely my point, Weatherford (and a special thanks to you for saving me the pain of typing out my example - your scenario matched mine so closely it is kind of scary ).

Palisades, the point is that we need to do something about the system. I have been around the hunter world for a long time and I can tell you that a very successful hunter that I showed back in the late 80’s would be hard pressed to produce what wins today. And he was quiet, non-spooky, a VERY good jumper and one of the easiest horses to ride you could find. But he had expression, he was bright, he would flip his tail in the corner. He was just plain fun to ride but in a world where there are classes full of horses that go around the course with each step the same it would be all too easy to write this horse off as “too fresh”.

I would hate to be a judge in this world - I don’t know if I would have the “courage” to buck the trend and pin the brilliant horse that plays a little in the corner. I can just imagine the glares from all of the trainers whose perfectly “prepped” (gawd, I hate that word) hunter has just sleepwalked his way around the course.

What starts as a trend can quickly escalate into the norm and then you have everybody trying to meet a possibly unattainable standard (brilliant jumper, brilliant mover who never puts a foot wrong). Just because maybe one horse entered the ring and could do that.

Really, this is not a new phenomenom. The D&M testing program grew out of Sallie Sexton standing up at a convention decades ago and challenging people to put some teeth in the existing rules. So maybe the standards are wrong in the modern world. It is time to take a look at changing the way we do things if we want to continue to show horses as hunters.

Look, the AQHA faced this some time ago. There was a time when every horse in a Western pleasure class went with his head below the point of the shoulder just shuffling along. The class became a contest of who could get the head the lowest and the gait the slowest. The WP horse was the joke of the horse world complete with derogatory name (peanut rollers) and snorts of derision from those who had true pleasure horses. Abuse was rampant. The AQHA rewrote the standards, instructed the judges to penalize the peanut roller and then sat people with the judges to “point” them in the right direction. Is it a perfect system? No. But it is a heck of a lot better than what was going on before.

Big-time professional sports change the rules all the time to make their game better and more spectator friendly. Many times they implement a rule and test it at minor league competitions (for example, the NHL) or they will implement it for a short period of time and then review. Maybe we could start with one class at a show and see how judges and exhibitors like it. Or we could have the USEF train a few judges and then place them at the show and compare their results to the official judge’s results. It would not take long to see if a more objective judging standard would really skew the results (I suspect it would not; the cream will always rise to the top).

As DMK has already stated you need to get at the root cause before you can hope to make a change. I really think that the way we judge the class is pushing people to try to measure up to an impossibly high standard.

Nina whose horses are usually the VBR (my horse NEEDS to be in completely there to help me out)!

Just a quick two points – to push this amazingly long (thank goodness people DO care about this)thread back up to the top.

  1. how much have people on this part of the BB followed the Ulla Salzberger saga? she recently was stripped of her victory in the last World Cup Final (Dressage). This was despite the facts that the level of testosterone was determined not to have had any affect on her horse’s performance, or that the vet stated that he had given the testosterone to the horse well - weeks - before the event (for a skin condition) and Ulla was not aware of the treatment. Under FEI rules the rider is the ‘responsible party’ for their horse ALL the TIME and tho they did not penalize her, they did take away her victory even under these circumstances.

My other point is that, although it has been 20+ years since I had the daily job of keeping GP horses sound (under natl as well as FEI rules) at least if I wanted to get to ride, I had 1 OTTB (in his 6th and 7th years as a GP horse at 15 and 16) that stayed sound (legally) with nothing more than a single tab of Bute 5 nites a week. They did this on a show schedule that did not reach 39 GP’s in a single season (a little bit of over doing it IMHO), but did take us all over the US, to Canada a couple of times a year, and to a lot of shows closer to home. One year it included Florida, 4 Canadian shows in the spring, 7 shows in 9 weeks all over Europe, the Masters, and indoors – from California. I also had two other OTTB’s competing at the international level that didn’t require even that much medication and one competed at the top level until 19.

Not bragging just pointing out that – unless the species has changed that much in 20 yrs – it is possible to keep even older horses going with less drugs and more attention to fitness and individualized daily care.

Linda Allen

I’m sorry, but I just don’t think it’s feasable for the “horse show vet” to be the only person allowed to give injections at a show. That just wouldn’t work–way too time consuming and time sensitive. How would that work at WEF with 3,000+/- horses competing in a 5 day period?

Some people may not be comfortable w/ their trainer giving injections and that is their perogative to pay a vet. I’m very comfortable with my trainer, who is also a RN, and who consults w/ our vet on the correct course of therapy for each horse. My vet would laugh if called to the farm for injections–there’s just not enough time in the day.

Kudos, Snowbird.

Heather, I would assume it is because the horse is in the full control and care of the trainer, and not the rider. Also, given that the pentox issue seems to always come down as a fine/censure, and not a suspension (as it should be), maybe that has some play.

As for the issue of accidently putting the meds in the wrong feed bucket, or putting it in the right bucket then giving it to the wrong horse, I agree it doesn’t happen often. But it happens to almost every person I know who mixes feed. And sure, we do catch it when it happens…

Oh wait? Do we? I mean how the hell would we know if we didn’t catch it? Instant replay camera? Message from a higher power late at night? Psychic hotline? The phrase “you don’t know what you don’t know” means something in a situation like this.

But if you test positive, oh well. The point of the rule isn’t to stop only the cheaters from using drugs, it is more to ensure that a drugged horse isn’t out there performing, regardless of how he got that way.

I don’t know any details on the finer points of processing these charges, but the only place the accidental/deliberate contamination issue is relevent is in the matter of intent. I am guessing that the committee can make some adjustment in penalty based on that issue. And if one compares the current round of fines/suspensions for reserpine with the last round, it looks like the group from the last round got full credit for not having the same degree of intent.

“I used to care, but things have changed…” Bob Dylan