Geez, even bills from, uh, well, let’s say, an org more important than an individual, don’t always get itemized… Much to some owner’s displeasure!!
(And I will say, this policy MAY have changed since the aforementioned incidents! 
)
It’s OUT! Linda Allen’s 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! 
What about stuff like regumate or depo? Is that illegal? Why are some drugs legal (dex and bute and isoxoprene, etc) or stuff like magnesium? Sorry if this has been asked before: I didn’t go through the entire thread.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Molly99:
Now, why are the vets being held accountable as well?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, unless the vet signed off on the entry form, I’d guess that USAE has no jurisdiction.
That, however, is more or less beside the point.
It really doesn’t matter whether said vet told the trainer and/or owner that the stuff wouldn’t test. If trainer and/or owner had the horse administered drugs for the purpose of altering behavior, then it was wrong.
And they didn’t get away with it like they thought they would.
Gee, what a shame.
My opinion of a vet who would aid and abet cheating is low, but that does not diminish the guilt of the rest of the crew one iota.
Unashamed member of the Arab clique…just settin’ on the Group W bench.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Court@HJ-OH:
Who do these two juniors ride with, Morgan Levey and Julie Ann Fontaine? Don? And I thought that the stewarts sold Dabble Do Ya? Who is riding her now?
Also Southern Sales Equestrian Center is a big sale barn and they have quite a few horses suspended. That should hurt business.
Courtney<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
About 30 pages ago I asked the same question and was told that you can still sell a suspended horse and as soon as the ownership is changed through USAEq, the horse is good to go. Didn’t seem right to me…seems like you could still do very good business while suspended, as long as the horses didn’t need ring time to sell!
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dana:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And in between the first page of the article and the second is a pull out called Supplements Simplified. Todd Minicus and Oh Star are pictured on the front of this 12 page booklet. On the cover it says “See Todd’s SmartPak on P. 11”. I went to P. 11 and I saw nothing about tranquilizers…<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lord Helpus, I’m very sorry, but I feel this is a very unfair and inflammatory accusation. I, personally, don’t know all the details (haven’t gotten my USAE mag yet), but it was reported earlier in this thread that the horse that tested postive was Roller Coaster who was a non-showing horse.
I don’t believe that it’s fair to make the assumption that, because Todd may have given Reserpine to a non-showing horse that he also had Oh Star on Reserpine. That’s a bit too big of a leap for me.
Prefacing the following statement with the comment that I’m NOT a vet. I was VERY active at QH shows back when Reserpine was the drug of choice. It became quite easy to identify the horses which were on Reserpine. It has some obvious side-effects. I have seen Oh Star at numerous shows throughout his career, and I never once assumed that he was on a tranquilizer.
Just my opinion…
Friends don’t let friends ride junk!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I am pretty sure that Rollar Coster was showing at the time and he said that it was suppose to go to another horse, Oh Star.
Courtney
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by radio talk:
All I can say Sandstone is unbelievable.
So it’s okay to cheat, as long as you don’t get caught?? 
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I DEFINATLY NEVER SAID THAT AND DONT TRY TO MAKE IT SOUND LIKE I DID!
I think drugging is bad, I think cheating is bad. Yes I think that these trainer made a mistake by taking their vets word but I jsut dont think it is fair to the trainers to say that they must all be drugging illegally on purpose! Thats all Im trying to say!
Marion
Amalia
Heart in a horse is every bit as important as it is in a person. ~Jimmy Cruise_
Off topic, Who is the Jimmy Cruise you are talking about that you attribute this quote?
Mixing up feed buckets? Clearly label each horse’s feed tub. Or mix up one bucket at a time. It’s not rocket science.
Part of management is anticipating mistakes and taking precautions to prevent them.
Hmmm. What do you suppose the actual odds of habitually “accident prone” riders working with staff that have such trouble keeping the feed buckets straight being able to overcome this handicap and rising to top levels of the sport…time and time again…
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MHM:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
So, what happens, are those rings and barns ON or OFF the showgrounds? If they are OFF, then where ARE people going to warm up? If they are ON, will there be extra stewards to keep an eye on them?
Sounds like an interesting idea, but seriously hard to enforce consistently…
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Indeed! Can you imagine the fleet of stewards in golf carts on patrol in Wellington??
Is this rule in the '04 rule book? If so, where? Or is it a proposed rule change?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We do have stewards on golf carts in FL. For the last few years I have been stabled in the village, and one could designate their property as part of the showgrounds or not. For instance, we were, and were subjected to steward patrol, whereas our close neighbor Paul designated as not, for obvious reasons. The payoffs of being ‘part of’ were no off grounds fee, and the high Jr/A-O horses could remain on the property before their classes (as they would not for the 24 hour rule if we were exempt from steward intervention).
Now, as to the rule, where is it? I can’t find it anywhere. Also, impossible to enforce, because if one jumps a whole course off grounds an hour before and yet jumps two jumps in the schooling area in front of the ring, one has “warmed-up” on site. Besides, there’s plenty of precedent of heading off towards the canal to begin with.
Too bad Todd didn’t have a vet take a sample from OhStar that day to verify that he didn’t get his resperine …
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by devildog:
Actually, my mechanic is married to my best friend… Otherwise I WOULD make sure that my car is being properly cared for!!! There are too many crooks out there in the world.
I think it IS the business of the horse owner to know what is going on with their horse. I ask my vet billions of questions, and it doesn’t bother her. She explains everything to me in a way I can understand, and I am more knowledgeable for it. I won’t just blindly hand over my horse to someone and say “Yeah, go ahead, do whatever you want to do, I don’t need to know anything!” Yes, I trust the trainers that I use. They are also willing to explain the hows and whys of their programs, which is important to me. I want to be informed, bottom line.
!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OMG! We MUST be twins! I also ask my farrier, Vet and who else is working on my horse a ton of questions. What, Why and how things work in the equine body. I love to be educated in the equine science. It’s my sciencetist brian. I love asking my vet questions on my horse and helping him to get hands on experience.
Oh…Devil Dog: What is your name? What is your Quest? What is your favorite color?? 
http://www.dmtc.com/dmtc98/Pedigree/
Look up your TB’s bloodlines
Thank you Linda Allen for joining us!! Things haven’t changed that much in the past twenty years. Except for the 39 shows a year some of the GP horses attend. IMHO, I think we over show all our disciplines.
Fitness in some cases has been a thing of the past. Maybe this is due in part to land being dimenished thru out our country. Turn outs for horses are a premium. Whether its in the northeast or in the west. Land has disappeared. That, could be over simplifying the situation. But personally, I think we need to look at other options if our horses are to continue to campaign as hard as they do.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WHISKEY POPPA:
.Trainer 1 &2 say I just did what DR. so and so said to do. I followed his directions perfectly.Now who is too blame???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The trainers, because they signed the entry form, agreeing to abide by the rules, which say that it isn’t allowable to administer any substance, testable or not, “natural” or not, in an attempt to change the behavior of the horse.
Now, under FDA regs, the DVM may be in some trouble for giving an unapproved animal drug and for not adequately labelling same, but someone’s got to complain about it.
Unashamed member of the Arab clique…just settin’ on the Group W bench.
I dont’ make the rules, and I don’t agree with all rules. However, by choosing to play a sport and SIGNING THE ENTRY BLANK, I choose to ABIDE BY THE RULES. Yes, it is black and white. You either follow the associations rules or you don’t. There is no gray area.
Well, count me in as one of the folks who think that “dead horse walking” around the course and over the jumps is a simply horrendous pervision of what the hunter should actually look like. And I don’t draw any distinction between “longed til dead”, “ridden til dead” or drugged with the latest “it won’t test” miracle via syringe. It’s not pretty folks; it’s never been pretty even if it garners ribbons and money. And some of the stuff that is used under the mistaken notion that it might not show up in testing is pretty damn serious stuff. So y’all better get educated about what’s going down Dobbin’s choppers or getting injected into his veins and y’all better take a good hard look at the damage of LTD and RTD and decide whether or not it is worth it.
Because, frankly, in the long run, it is not.
SueL
This thread is getting annoying. I think what we need to do is clearly distinguish the kinds of trainers and clients we are discussing.
There are many kinds of shows: local, unrecognized shows; local USAEq rated shows; USAEq rated shows with stiffer competition and more fanfare; and then there are the elite shows and circuits - WEF, Indoors and Devon, for example. The owners, riders and trainers about whom C. Boylen is speaking play on those elite fields: the Dixon Oval, the Grand Prix field at WEF, the Farm Show Arena in Harrisburg.
There are lots of us who don’t compete at that level, and unless you’ve attended WEF or Devon, to watch or to compete, I think it is hard to imagine what it is like. I would venture a guess that those who spend ten thousand dollars each week to compete on Florida’s winter circuit probably do not expect to go home empty-handed for their troubles. These are the same people who fly their horses to Devon in the spring, and who spend the fall on the East Coast for Indoors. If that is not you, fine. As my dad would say, that’s why God made chocolate and vanilla. But I think it is akin to needlessly bashing one’s head against the wall to equate the average owner’s goals and more localized show experiences with the experiences and goals of those who play at the elite level. Could we please stop doing that? If you choose to take your horse to a few shows each year, go for the joy of competing and testing yourself, and don’t care whether you come home with ribbons, that’s great. It’s nice for you, and it’s nice for your horse. Not everyone is the same, however. Many people love the big-league circuit and the thrill of winning the blue. Such people typically train with the kind of trainers about which this thread was started.
So here we are on page 25 and we still don’t have any specifics whatsoever yet we jump on this or that bandwagon full of innuendo… 
We have posters who hint they know but provide no specifics.
We have posters who sound like they were in the contentious hearing room but provide no specifics.
We have posters that are condemning an entire segment of the horse industry and all connected to it based on…well based on the non exsistent specifics not presented in these posts.
I’m not naive and have been showing since '67, seen it all and more. But all this rampant speculation, harsh and outright hateful opinions based on that speculation need to stop as this thread dies a too late death.
The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That’s the way it is.
2 thoughts on some of the suggestions:
If you want to make a change to judging hunters against a “perfect” score like in dressage, then who would you propose set the “perfect” standard.
One of the things I like best about the hunters is that different judges like different styles of jumping, thus giving the middle of the road horse opportunities to shine. Most would agree on the top group, but after those FEW, judges often disagree.
And I must say, that I don’t see judges rewarding the bad horses, it just happens that those bad horses are still the best of the bunch that day. Just because they won over a better jumper, most likely means that the better jumper did something REALLY bad, not just a head toss in the corner.
I have sat through many hunter judging clinics and the majority of those judging WANT the best horse to win that day and I doubt that many would EVER be able to agree on a PERFECT standard to compare against. Many have “their own” standard as a basis for comparison for the trips that day, but that is only to give them a starting point regarding if the first trip was good or bad or somewhere in the middle.
I think the one thing that people are missing is that changing the judging standards will not stop people from drugging their horses. It will still happen. If you want to lessen the drug use then the best and quite possibly the only way to make that happen is to raise the fines in relation to getting caught and to increase the number of horses tested.
I really don’t believe that the judging standards are what cause people to drug for the purpose of trying to win. They do it because it is easy, the client wants to stay one but doesn’t have the time, money, to learn or buy a proper horse, and because the penalty is not that severe in the long term.
Think of it this way:
Back in school, if a student was caught cheating, would the student get in trouble or would the teacher change their grading methods?
Cheating is cheating, plain and simple.
Increase the penalty and it will lessen, change the standards and people will just have a “new” standard to cheat for.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Timothy Hay:
I think its interesting that some of the people you’d expect to be all over this thread are conspicuous by their absence.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, Timothy, I have no idea who you include in the “people you’d expect to be all over this thread”. but JUST IN CASE I fall on the outer edge of that parameter, I will check in…
I have been showing for 51 years. Yep. I started in leadline at age 3 and I am now 54. I have heard this topic discussed ad nauseum for most of that time. Perhaps some of those “who you’d expect to be all over this topic” are just plain exhausted in engaging in aimless discussion that will not have one iota of effect on the future of horse showing.
Now, discussing names and clients when the list comes out – THAT is different, since shame is a strong motivator and perhaps if people knew that their name would be associated with a suspended trainer and bandied about on the Internet, they might think twice about staying with said trainer.
I also disagree that being suspended during WEF is a big deal. How many BNT’s actually stable on the showgrounds? Virtually NONE. Yes, they might have a couple of stalls and a tack room in a tent for horses showing who need a place to go back to pee before the hacks, but 99% of the BNT’s rent or own stables off the showgrounds.
Heck, being suspended for life hasn’t slowed Paul Valiere down much. He has a full client roster showing in Wellington. Even his wife shows at WEF. They all staboe right on the edge of the showgrounds and are closer to the rings than some of the back tents, from what I have heard.
In comparison to a drugging suspension, I know a trainer who was suspended for 3 months for calling the steward an effing be-atch. Not a nice thing certainly. But hardly in the same category as drugging horses.
I agree that trainers should have to pay a fine which really HURTS. Perhaps $20,000 for the first violation and double and triple that for second and third violations. After all, $20,000 is only the commission plus kickback on one horse sale, so it is afforable; but having to pay it might turn that Mercedes into a Lexus.
Will it happen? Nope. The people who make the rules are often trainers…
[This message was edited by Lord Helpus on Nov. 06, 2003 at 07:03 PM.]
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