[QUOTE=WB Mom;7253712]
So the statement on the website that all papers for JC TB’s are legally owned by the JC is not correct? Sorry for the questions, just have no idea on this![/QUOTE]
Anyone want to bet that this means horses are possibly being sold under false names and ages?
You can verify who the horse is by tattoo number with no papers.
Not commenting on the whole business but the Seattle memo horse is so cute! What a good boy jumping around like that.
[QUOTE=alternate_universe;7254127]
Anyone want to bet that this means horses are possibly being sold under false names and ages?[/QUOTE]
A basic tattoo search can verify the horse if it raced. However, if it just ran and was never visited by the “tattoo man” as some OTTB I have purchased then without papers it is VERY difficult to prove them as such. However, there is DNA testing and EVERY TB registered is DNA tested. So there is one validation. However, speaking from one who purchased a no papers horse YEARS ago (like 15 at this point) only to discover after gelding and reselling the horse 6 months later that he had been stolen in transport. Again as others have said, not unusual for papers not to be released, however, I always request a copy of the papers. Can’t do anything with a copy, but verify the horse and the originals go back to JC. As far as Sandra, I know she has marketed a few horses to polo connections (as in this area there are quite a few) and nothing wrong with obtaining a free horse for resale. They are plentiful enough here. I myself have ended up with many many free horses that were sound and excellently bred selling for quite a bit that I flipped when I did it to put myself through college. I know where all my horses are and all turned out okay. I actually am just a few miles from Sandra and ironically have not heard anything regarding her good or bad. I do know her daughter’s nice horse was supposedly stolen several years ago (per net possee). I’ve not had one of her horses so I can’t comment one way or the other on them. I will say that I’m not a hunter person, so I’m not the best equipped to make an educated comment on the appropriateness of her horses for the hunter ring. I am a totally different discipline. Here is what I do know is she has changed facilities multiple times in the last three years - originally was based out of the training facility (used to be 505 farm now victory haven), then switched to another facility across the road, then on to another, and finally where she is now. I don’t know her depature reasons from any of them. I do know victory haven didn’t like all the traffic of people looking and the additional liability, also the other place she was is now for sale and has polo people. I’m not going to judge her or comment on her as I’ve not experienced a horse from her. However, I will say one thing. Racehorses are a very different breed. I don’t know how many of you have ever worked on a track or dealt with a horse DIRECTLY off the track (ie still comes to you in racing plates). I know many have or have had OTTB. If you have then you know the reality of the racing world if a horse isn’t earning it’s keep, it has to go. Somewhere. At the least she is an option for some of these horses to have a second career. I don’t condone her advertising practices if “shady” nor will I say that all her horses are 100% sound and no problems because I simply don’t know. I have been to her site and I have an issue with the fact that for a pre purchase by a vet of your choice you need to schedule it in conjunction with their vet. Ummm don’t know about their vet, but mine (out of R and R and I deeply trust) is a VERY busy man and we have a hard enough time coordinating schedules outside of an emergency (never ever had a problem in an emergency) I can’t imagine trying to coordinate two vets schedules. And I’m sorry, my vet will take his own radiographs. I don’t trust yours. I do look at horses for clients (some long distance) and I always recommend them to get an independent vet of the seller. I suggest mine, but let them know very clearly if they want another independent of both parties there are more than enough to choose from. We have some great vets here, but we have some I would trust their judgement for anything. I actually looked at one of her horses online, looks nice enough. I don’t want a jumper, nor do I care if it is jumper. I like the looks of it well enough to set up the process and see if it is what people say. Will report back on findings.
one of our approved vets will contact you ? Umm I’m sorry but if I am buying a horse from you I am CERTAINLY not going to use a vet you recommend. I will take my own thank you very much so I know I can get whatever I ask for as far as vetting. Also, put money on there so I can ensure financial obligations are met ? Umm, not so much. I will pay for my horse with a certified check and my credit card information will not be involved. Now if you would like, I would be happy to pay the vet directly up front regarding the pre purchase exam (which is frequently required especially if not a known client) but at any rate, the obligation does not fall back to you. It falls back on the potential buyer as they made the request. Someone wants to purchase a horse from me, I inform them, I am happy to set up the potential appointment with vet of their choice, or they can, and payment must be arranged with that vet prior to vetting. Good business practice on both ends. I don’t see the point of an “approved vet” and I’m sorry but I won’t argue that point with you. The buyer vets the vet of their choice period, end of story.
They do get their horses right off the track, bred and born in Ky, sent to the training centers in in Ky, washed out at the tracks in Ky. Most have starts. Whatever else, I don’t question the identity or statistics of TBs around Lexington where there are plenty of them and everybody knows about the tattoo.
Plenty of issues here, but not that one.
http://articles.centralkynews.com/2009-01-14/news/24848455_1_lawsuit-horses-james-lattanzio/2
this is the article in regards to the issue discussed. They claimed stalking and didn’t go to the barn (okay don’t understand don’t take your daughter then and well, stalking and harrassment are a police issue here) and a horse died of starvation. The horse is still listed as missing on netpossee. Stated when they collected the horses, noticed one was missing. If they found out it was dead why not remove that and they would have known that, that day or the other. Hadn’t heard that the horse was actually dead.
findeight - I was questioning if the horses didn’t run. I have had racehorses myself at the training centers, that washed out for a variety of reasons that never made it to the races, so none had tattoos because until aware they were going to race, was when we ended up actually tattooed them. All of the people from their program are exercise riders and daughter is supposedly a jockey as well, so plenty of connections to get the horses. As I said, nothing wrong with flipping a sound horse and I have been around the track long enough to know that without a doubt, some horses come off with issues BIG ISSUES. Some don’t pop up until later on when let down and restarted and you find out what they are actually like personality wise. A race fit TB is very different. Also, I am KY based right in the heart actually a mile and a half from the person in question and I am not the first, nor will I be the last that has had an issue with a stolen horse. Once sold without papers, you would have to go to the jockey club to ensure papers were transferred back to them. After that point, there is no way to record transfer of ownership and a horse could end up anywhere and with anyone. Horses show names change, part of the reason it is so hard to follow a horse once sold. I’ve been lucky and most info has been passed on by prior owners because I make it clear the horse has a home here if something happens they can’t keep it. Plus unfortunately during searches, I’ve found the JC to be less than helpful at dealing with or contacting prior owners. Very frustrating, so yes, once papers gone would be easy enough for a horse to change hands multiple times and be stolen without a way to trace back ownership. Why I always ask for a copy of papers on which I sign the back and have the person selling or buying sign the back to maintain an ownership trail and also validate the horse.
The Lattanzios have instigated many frivolous lawsuits over the years. They never win though an dont even bother getting a lawyer, Sandra’s husband James “represents” them. Google the Galen Institute in CT and the Lattanzios.
And on equinenow.com I see she has reduced the prices on her horses from where she had them listed for 10000 to 15000. How can a horses value fluctuate three times in one week?
We know all about it, had several threads including those from posters with personal involvement in the last few years and they have retaliated and trashed COTH on some weird website claiming we ruined their business etc…old news. Changing things on the website(s) in response to remarks on COTH is business as usual too…she’s reading.
Good to point out yet another name change though.
I did find the one regarding the thing. I don’t know her prior name but a link to a 2005 arrest in FL for burglary/theft popped up for a sandra lattimer in the middle of all that. I’m still trying to figure out the connection to the florida place she has listed on her site. Makes me wonder. I don’t know if my comp is being stupid or whatever but I’ve tried searching on here for prior posts and can’t find them. Help ?
[QUOTE=alter5218;7254905]
And on equinenow.com I see she has reduced the prices on her horses from where she had them listed for 10000 to 15000. How can a horses value fluctuate three times in one week?[/QUOTE]
trainers probably view her as a “dumping ground” for their washed up/out horses. Like I said, have to go somewhere. If you notice alot on there say too many horses etc. Set up to be a flip business so a steady set coming in, especially this time of year when there is increased maintenance cost and some are going south for the winter, so they try to clean house before they go.
[QUOTE=fire_911medic;7254915]
…I’ve tried searching on here for prior posts and can’t find them. Help ?[/QUOTE]
Try searching Churchill TBs. There are 2 that should come up where she participated. Somebody just brought them both up to entertain yellowbritches during her recovery so they should still be easy to find. Actually they pop up when you Google her as well.
thanks found - I do believe I will tell interested party to run like the hills. Already had one negative experience with a supposed reputable rescue (don’t even ask how that turned out - one word BADLY). The other site that she decided to have some fun on was a farrier forum where she decided to start bashing tom and jennifer joyce. Tom is a competent farrier I had him for a while when he first came to ky with no complaints. He did gravitate towards doing large barns with multiple horses later on, which I completely understand as is a better use of his time and limits wear and tear on vehicle, but is what resulted in my switching of farriers. Sandra blasted him thoroughly on there and actually found it while trying to research an issue I had with a previous farrier (incompetence). I wonder how people like that survive but then again, even Rick Trontz (former owner of hopewell farm) leased to the Murty Brothers who are known for their lack of care and stupidity. Sadly in KY we have the most lax abuse rules especially regarding equines and it just turns out badly for the horses and the people are free to turn and do it again. I myself wondered why the name kept changing as I check equine.com occasionally for clients. Think I know now!
[QUOTE=fire_911medic;7254969]
thanks found - I do believe I will tell interested party to run like the hills. Already had one negative experience with a supposed reputable rescue (don’t even ask how that turned out - one word BADLY). The other site that she decided to have some fun on was a farrier forum where she decided to start bashing tom and jennifer joyce. Tom is a competent farrier I had him for a while when he first came to ky with no complaints. He did gravitate towards doing large barns with multiple horses later on, which I completely understand as is a better use of his time and limits wear and tear on vehicle, but is what resulted in my switching of farriers. Sandra blasted him thoroughly on there and actually found it while trying to research an issue I had with a previous farrier (incompetence). I wonder how people like that survive but then again, even Rick Trontz (former owner of hopewell farm) leased to the Murty Brothers who are known for their lack of care and stupidity. Sadly in KY we have the most lax abuse rules especially regarding equines and it just turns out badly for the horses and the people are free to turn and do it again. I myself wondered why the name kept changing as I check equine.com occasionally for clients. Think I know now![/QUOTE]
She tried something similar on here under the alias jjumpergirl22 as well. She was however shut down pretty quick because everyone figured out pretty quick found out that is was just Sandra pretending to be someone else.
[QUOTE=fire_911medic;7254825]
A basic tattoo search can verify the horse if it raced. However, if it just ran and was never visited by the “tattoo man” as some OTTB I have purchased then without papers it is VERY difficult to prove them as such.
I’ve always been told that in order to run the horse HAS to have a tattoo. Someone that works at the track maybe can shed some light onto that one. I could see maybe if it was an unrecognized or backyard type track not having a tattoo. The only ones that I have seen untattooed were youngsters that haven’t ran yet.
[QUOTE=Star’s Ascent;7255009]
[QUOTE=fire_911medic;7254825]A basic tattoo search can verify the horse if it raced. However, if it just ran and was never visited by the “tattoo man” as some OTTB I have purchased then without papers it is VERY difficult to prove them as such.
I’ve always been told that in order to run the horse HAS to have a tattoo. Someone that works at the track maybe can shed some light onto that one. I could see maybe if it was an unrecognized or backyard type track not having a tattoo. The only ones that I have seen untattooed were youngsters that haven’t ran yet.[/QUOTE]
You are correct. A horse can not run in a race without a tatoo. If you have ever been to a track youll notice in the saddling area they always have and indetifier who goes and checks each horse beforehand to ensure that it is the correct horse in the reace.
They must have a tattoo to race is correct. However at the two large training centers here (year round keeneland excluded) there are many horses that do not have tattoos. These are the horses that are simply in training. When they are ready to actually race then they are tattooed. I apologize I should have clarified better. So yes tattoo to race but not to train. Many many tb never make it to the track for various reasons most commonly injury or owners running out of money. Thanks for the assistance helping me clarify guys !
Double post sorry
No problem, I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t going crazy!
I wish there were people that run this type of program-meaning bringing in pretty much all OTTB’s and restarting them and finding them new homes not running a shady program!-around here. You get barns that will bring in a few every now and then but not a totally dedicated program. That would be neat to have.
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