While I know you are interested in WBs, and for that, Fleetwater’s Opposition (trak) is as good as it gets, have you considered Cruising? He’s an ISH available frozen who has many, many, eventing and showjumping descendants. He’s way up on the WBSHF rankings and had a few who ran Badminton and/or Burghley this year.
Frank Ostholt’s WEG and Hong Kong horse, Mr. Medicott is by Cruising. You’d most likely get the bone and brain of the RID to go with extreme talent.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;5199822]
have you considered Cruising? He’s an ISH available frozen who has many, many, eventing and showjumping descendants. He’s way up on the WBSHF rankings and had a few who ran Badminton and/or Burghley this year.
Frank Ostholt’s WEG and Hong Kong horse, Mr. Medicott is by Cruising. You’d most likely get the bone and brain of the RID to go with extreme talent.[/QUOTE]
Brain? From Cruising? :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Pray that you do not get his brain. Cruising is extremely spooky. Does not want to see anything new, ever. His successful career is a testimony to the careful training of Trevor Coyle. Few riders would have had the patience or the stamina to do what he did with this horse. This is why Cruising quietly vanished from the scene after his owner yanked him from Coyle.
Coyle lost the ride when the Euro championships were held at Hickstead. Hickstead is famous for big, spooky, scary, unlike-anywhere-else fences. Coyle did not want to take Cruising there. His owner did. Coyle very publicly and clearly stated that Cruising was too spooky for Hickstead and the experience would impact him negatively. His actual words were “I’m not throwing away seven years of hard work for the sake of one afternoon.” After that Cruising went to the Hadleys (?) and then to John Whitaker and then quickly ‘retired.’ I’m sure it was the kindest option for the horse.
Cruising babies are a mixed bag. They can jump (not all are great but even the ugly ones are serviceable) but very dependent on the mare if you want them to be nice. Breed to an average mare and you’ll get a skin full of spare parts, IMO. Also, Cruising is very unrefined in the throat latch area (part of the ‘double pony’ look) and this is often passed on, making collection a bit difficult.
IMO, the success of his offspring is mostly due to the mares and the quantity of offspring out there.
(And yes, I’ve seen Cruising in person and numerous Cruising offspring.)
Having looked at your mare–first off, she is lovely and substantial–I would not lean towards FO. He does an excellent job of adding a bit of compactness to gangly mares, and yours is not a candidate for this–she is neither long backed, nor long necked.
But if what you are looking for is a bit of a better neck/shoulder connection, some more leg, and a little over-all refining of this nice TB type, I think 2 horses look good for her. Again, I like Stiletto, and I’ve seen nice babies come from this type of TB, he gives them a bit more leg and alot of jump. But he is not a reliable producer of more neck.
Not mentioned yet, but no less worthy, is Cardento, also available through VDL. He is Capitol/Lord Holsteiner and gives a good jump, good leg, and often neck. A close friend recently bred to him for an event horse, and the foal is lovely and quiet, brave but elastic. I love his look, but he is untested as an event sire, although a very proved jumper sire.
http://www.vdlstud.com/paard/3/1/26/jumping-horses/cardento.htm
ETA: I love mighty magic too, but he wont give you any size. What about Quidam de Revel?
Cruising and other Irish Horses
Yes, we’ve thought about Cruising and some of the other Irish Sporthorses around, and are still considering those. I had focused on the warmblood question here because most of the Irish horses are pretty well known quantities in eventing, and most warmbloods are not (although I consider RIDs warmbloods, as do most people, I think). Domestically, we are mainly considering Pallas Digion, given his recent record; I want to see how his offspring move, but have yet to find any good video of either him or his progeny on the flat (the Acorn Hill video is very polished, but just has jumping footage for Pallas). Most of the video I’ve found for Baily Wick has been xc, but we are still looking. Given the increasing importance of the dressage scores, we want warmblood movement on the flat, Irish boldness over fences, and Thoroughbred speed in between. Too much to ask? 
[QUOTE=Peregrine Farm;5200260]
Given the increasing importance of the dressage scores, we want warmblood movement on the flat, Irish boldness over fences, and Thoroughbred speed in between. Too much to ask? :)[/QUOTE]
Don’t we all!
But, since you don’t mention you also want it to be sane and amateur friendly, well, then, you should be fine! lol
[QUOTE=Peregrine Farm;5200260]
Domestically, we are mainly considering Pallas Digion, given his recent record; I want to see how his offspring move, but have yet to find any good video of either him or his progeny on the flat (the Acorn Hill video is very polished, but just has jumping footage for Pallas). [/QUOTE]
Don’t know if you’ll find this helpful but here’s a video of Spring Along working on the flat and over small fences at a demonstration.
Great - thank you! I’ll look at it.
Interesting b/c that is not what the owner said of him back when I first inquired. Much the opposite.
QdR is $8500 a dose (if not more) and doesn’t bring size amongst other things.
Boritas could be interesting.
Thanks for looking
[QUOTE=VicarageVee;5200163]
Having looked at your mare–first off, she is lovely and substantial–I would not lean towards FO. He does an excellent job of adding a bit of compactness to gangly mares, and yours is not a candidate for this–she is neither long backed, nor long necked.[/QUOTE]
VV, thanks for taking the time to look and for the compliment on my mare – she is compact, which is a personal preference of mine, but I agree that she could use some additional leg and some refinement.
Adding to your comment about sane-ness, we also want to produce something that will stay sound from birth through retirement 20 years later. ;). All kidding aside breeding a horse whose conformation helps it to stay sound is a primary goal of ours - the most talented horse in the world can’t do anything if it cannot withstand the rigors of training and competition.
[QUOTE=ponygirl;5200355]
Interesting b/c that is not what the owner said of him back when I first inquired. Much the opposite.
QdR is $8500 a dose (if not more) and doesn’t bring size amongst other things.
Boritas could be interesting.[/QUOTE]
I have known several MM get who are gorgeous. They say he adds sparkle, and he totally does! But I’ve yet to see him increase height. He is, himself, only 16.1–and his babies are so refined, but not big.
Look, I’m not trying to trash any stallions here, or any of their progeny. I think we would be lucky to have a baby from every last one of them! But, I’m just saying, I haven’t seen very many 16.2+ MM get. And some people care about that–and that’s not to say size is any indicator of talent, size is like coloring, some people prefer big, some people prefer bays.
[QUOTE=Peregrine Farm;5200357]
VV, thanks for taking the time to look and for the compliment on my mare – she is compact, which is a personal preference of mine, but I agree that she could use some additional leg and some refinement.
Adding to your comment about sane-ness, we also want to produce something that will stay sound from birth through retirement 20 years later. ;). All kidding aside breeding a horse whose conformation helps it to stay sound is a primary goal of ours - the most talented horse in the world can’t do anything if it cannot withstand the rigors of training and competition.[/QUOTE]
From what you’re saying here, I would think seriously then about CD. It would keep her stable build, it would add jump, the baby would be irish over fences, TB in the gallop, get some good movement on the ground, and I love the CD horses for soundnesss.
Plus so many of these Stallions listed here will be available for years to come. Snap up some CD while there is still some left!
I took a serious look at QdR some years ago. I think he was only 3000 Euros then (and Euros were brand new).
The feedback I got – and this was from numerous folks in France – was the offspring tended toward ‘tough in the mouth.’ As my mare was no DQ, I decided against him.
(Which begs the question: could you ever find enough names to have a Jeopardy category called ‘Famous French-bred Dressage Horses’? :D)
How about Quite easy - Qdr, but also some modifying influence Mine is very refined - loos like a TB but super mover and so far, good mind
[QUOTE=VicarageVee;5200403]
From what you’re saying here, I would think seriously then about CD. It would keep her stable build, it would add jump, the baby would be irish over fences, TB in the gallop, get some good movement on the ground, and I love the CD horses for soundnesss.
Plus so many of these Stallions listed here will be available for years to come. Snap up some CD while there is still some left![/QUOTE]
Catherston Dazzler is near the top of our list for the very reasons you describe above. Hyde Park Corner lives in the same town as me, as a matter of fact.
[QUOTE=VicarageVee;5200386]
I have known several MM get who are gorgeous. They say he adds sparkle, and he totally does! But I’ve yet to see him increase height. He is, himself, only 16.1–and his babies are so refined, but not big.[/QUOTE]
This contradicts everything I’ve heard/read about this stallion including that from the breeder (and I’ve followed him since he was three) – the consistent story is that he breeds much larger than himself and that he should specifically NOT be used on tall mares. In no way am I denigrating the stallion (he is on my short list).
Viney have you looked at this guy…IMHO a better choice than Cruising
http://www.irishdraught.com/horses/profile.php?unid=3376
Would love to hear more on this point as well…he is on my list for my mare. She is over 16.3. She has a 1/2 sibling who is over 17.1 (by a 16 hand sire). And it looks like she throws height herself as her first foal (by a 16.1 hand sire) looks like she is going to also be tall (not huge but tall). I don’t want one so tall…
Honestly…the direction of the sport now, I’m not sure we need as much blood as people think. I think if you have a TB mare as your base you probably have enough blood…you want a sire that throws a type (i.e. doesn’t throw cart horses). Yes you need a good gallop…but more important in today’s sport is ridability. I think you are right to look outside the normal event sires…as I don’t think we have seen enough horses yet bred specifically for the sport in its current state.
I think more scope, better movement is good…but to be careful with crossing too much to a pure jumper stallion as you may get too much scope (and too much carefulness). I would stick with the WB sires who are producing both dressage and jumpers but not be concerned with them producing a lot of GP dressage or jumpers. They don’t need that level to be a top event horse.
This is exactly the same thing I’ve been told by the breeder. I too have been following him since the same age. So you and I are hearing the same thing.
Here’s an older COTH thread on Mighty Magic.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=126824
Comment 26 starts some discussion on what he throws.
I do think you have to be a bit careful extrapolating, though, if they are talking about what happens when they use him on wb mares v. on tb mares. Hopefully they’ll have some good representatives of both scenarios. I bred a highly xx/ox mare who was right around 16hh, maybe a smidge more, to a 16.2hh Han stallion whose Han mare offspring I had seen (and they were moderate size, a smidge heavier than what I wanted) and ended up with a 17.2 hh guy. Which is mostly just to say that while it’s all a bit of a gamble, if your mare is different from the kinds of mares the stallion usually covers, be prepared that your results might be a little less predictable.
This link
http://www.frenchstallions.org/stallions/mighty-magic/2007027.html
also recommends MM for small to medium mares, indicating that they think he’ll throw tall.
Thanks for posting the pedigree and picture - she’s a nice looking mare. She’s not as tightly bred as I thought she might have been, which is maybe a good thing if you really do want to change her type a bit, although I think you don’t really need to change it a lot for her line of work. Some of the multi-cross Ramzes/Ramiro horses mentioned like Contendro and Cardento are bringing in a fairly potent ox line and may do the most predictable job of helping out with the neckset, but with it will come the issues of pulling in that much ox, especially if you want size. So I’d check with the stallion owners as to what they have generated with mares like your girl - a lot of blood and relatively level topline and moderate size. If you are going to get the size you like, the possible infusions re: foot, bone and endurance from the ox might be attractive for your goals.
Another option that you might want to consider, though, is to go with a stallion that brings in that higher neck set through its own TB lines - like a stallion with a concentration of Ladykiller. One like Landfriese II might be an option to consider. Rainbow Equus Meadows also has Landkoenig who has also has the doubled up Ladykiller through Landadel, but not as much other blood. Since you like your current horse by a Fuerst Gotthard son you might like cruising through his information on the site. I’m sure that they have some Landkoenigs from tb mares and I would think you might get some good info on Landfriese II crossed with blood as well.
I do go back to Silver Twist, for a really out of the box option too, in part bc of your mare’s Double Jay. Silver Twist is by Abdullah out of a Good Twist mare. Good Twist on a Double Jay grandaughter gave us Gem Twist. And if you had a filly and stayed with the breeding, since you also like Stiletto you’d be able to cross back for a sex balanced Abdullah cross that would still be a lot of blood.
And I’d still keep Cicera’s Icewater on the list in large part bc of the known factor of Cavalier Royale and the close breeding. You’ve also had some good suggestions on event sires in general who might not necessarily address the neck issue that much, but I’m not sure if you really have to address the neck that much for what you are wanting. For the proven event sires, just dig in with their owners/handlers to see what they’ve produced, not so much with tb mares in general, as with tb mares like your mare.
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