THIS IS WHY!! THIS IS WHY!!! *rant*

[Molly_Malone]

There’s something else here that’s being ignored.

You pay a professional more money to do something, don’t you? That’s why everyone tells you to get an MBA, or become a doctor ect etc.

Do you want a foal bred by someone who sees a pretty horse and breeds it to the stallion du jour, or would you rather pay a bit more for a foal that’s been bred by someone who knows what they are doing?

You are paying for their experience too, as well as all the other stuff. Or would you rather have your knee operated on by the butcher down the road because when you get down to it, muscle is just muscle, right? Knives are the same, right. How hard can it be?

[Drvmb1ggl3]

@Molly Malone;2609248

There’s something else here that’s being ignored.

You pay a professional more money to do something, don’t you? That’s why everyone tells you to get an MBA, or become a doctor etc etc.

Do you want a foal bred by someone who sees a pretty horse and breeds it to the stallion du jour, or would you rather pay a bit more for a foal that’s been bred by someone who knows what they are doing?

You are paying for their experience too, as well as all the other stuff. Or would you rather have your knee operated on by the butcher down the road because when you get down to it, muscle is just muscle, right? Knives are the same, right. How hard can it be?

Oh for the love of jeziz.
Just because it costs someone gobs of money to get a foal to a year old doesn’t mean they are any more expert or more professional than those that do it cheaper.
The most “professional” (as you like to call it) WB breeders in the world are in Europe, and has been pointed out several times many manage to produce horses with lower overall costs. Those fellas know what they are doing, I think it’s safe to say.

[SLW]

[QUOTE=cholmberg;2608780]
No joke! Smart Chic OLena is 25K! :eek::eek: Reminic is 15K :eek:
And they do not ship on SCO at all, mare MUST go to the ranch to be
bred. My own personal fav Babcock Ranch stallion (Trashadeous) is only
2K, which kind of suprises me, I figured he’d be higher considering what
he’s done. I’d love to have a ‘Trash’ baby.[/QUOTE]

At this level, Smart Chic Olena, Reminic, the stallion owners approve and invite mares to be bred to the stallions. Just because someone has the $$ for the stud fee won’t be enough. The mare has to be good and some sort of “must compete” pledge seems to be made. Shining Spark is $10,000 to approved mares.

The QTR breeders I personally know produce cow horse & roping horses which have national AQHA World titles. The mares foal in small paddocks or stalls then are kicked back out w/ the herd once the foal is deemed healthy, within a day or so. The stud fees are similar, $1500 to $2500, but the mare care is far less than the OP quotes for hay & bedding over 18 months since the mares live outdoors until close to the due date. Additionally, they will wean & sell at 4 months if a buyer is waiting, reducing foal expenses by 4 months. I could not guess what the facilty expenses are since training is also done on site.

[showjumpers66]

I haven’t yet drudged through all of the posts yet, but wanted to agree that there is a trend for American breeders to want to sell for what they have into their foals when really we should be pricing them based on their value as individuals. For example, our foals from imported Premium Holsteiner mares by Casall (the first Casall foals in the US) are going to be of more value than say our Silver Lining / TB crosses as stallion and/or mare prospects based on pedigree alone. The motherline of a colt will make or break his value as a prospective stallion. On the flip side, those Silver Lining / TB crosses are going to have more value for the hunter market based on their type and potential for having the right jump and way of going. There is so much more involved than the up front investment. We need to take all of the pieces - pedigree, quality of conformation and movement, temperament, prospective talent, and THE MARKET - into account. Many German foal raisers are successful because they invest as little as possible into the raising of the foals and cull as much as possible to avoid excessive expenditures on young horses failing to show special qualities. How many of us are guilty of trying to save a young horse that can’t be saved or trying to fix the impossible? <hand raised> It is a difficult line to draw. That said, some foals are absolutely worth $10,000 plus and upwards in the 20s. I think some breeders devalue those special foals by over pricing mediocre to average foals.

[_Freedom]

Seen on another BB

I just picked up a 6 year old, registered WB mare with papers. Bay with 2 big socks on her fronts, a star and snip on her face. 16.1 hh, wide bodied, GORGEOUS trot movement on her. She’s as flat kneed as the day is long, schooling a two-tempi change (like you just shift your weight one way or the other, and she’ll swap a clean, smooth change). She’s started over fences, jumping a 2’ - 2’3" course with a CUTE jump (knees up to her ears ). She vetted completely clean with no issues (we x-rayed all the way around) and…we paid a grand total of $1750.

I found her by accident, and couldn’t pass her up as a project horse. She’s so quiet and smooth to ride, she’s going to make an awesome children’s or junior horse.

[pwynnnorman]

Oh, yes, in a way it IS apples and oranges–just like comparing a mobile home to a McMansion all right.

Sure, STF/DownYonder, if you go out and buy a $20,000-$30,000 broodmare and breed her to a top stallion, I sure hope you can sell the baby for at LEAST $10K because otherwise you are one crazy person!

And if you can AFFORD to go out there and buy those broodmares, yup, you are soooooo right: you and I are apples and oranges. You and 95% of everyone here, I suspect.

So welcome to our reality. MOST of us can’t afford to buy it. We have to make it. We have to start with what we have and then improve our programs over time. And we can’t afford to ignore a huge portion (the very biggest, in fact) of an industry – a far, far, far bigger portion that your “apples”, for sure: people who don’t give a rats patootie who the creature’s parents are if it does the job.

You can also, as I said before, afford to ignore facts in order to make your points. While I’m actually looking forward to proving that, when it comes to international level competition, Teddy is no freak, you’ve managed to ignore–in every place where it exists, not just on this BB–the fact that my breeding program has managed to produce a fair number of quite decent winners – and in more than one sport, too. Or didn’t you see any of that? Or maybe you have some threshold of accomplishment that will finally convince you that maybe, just maybe, there’s more to results than just luck?

Funny thing is, I was actually thinking about the expensive broodmare issue before I read that post of yours, STF. I realized they exist and it occurred to me to wonder WHY someone would indeed buy a broodmare for so much money, given sporthorse markets in this country and the LACK of a big equestrian (as in “sporthorse”) tradition here, unlike Europe. Our very culture makes it less likely (NO NO NO, hardly impossible) that you will find many buyers for your foal–and to find them and impress them sufficiently to buy, you are (like I said about advertising in the Pennysaver vs. the slick, upscale Ocala Style) going to have to spend a mint. So what is the motivation, the point, of a business producing a risky product for a tiny market? Is that a business? What was the name of that car they used in Back to The Future? The one with doors that opened like wings (and no one would buy)?

Anyway, I’m not in business, according to you, because I spend a little in an effort to make a lot, while you are because you spend a lot to make a little?

Oh, yeah. Apples and Oranges.

[Oh, say! Anyone remember Yancey Farms? Know her history? What she concluded and why she’s doing what she’s doing now? STF, you need to look that up.]

[JustJump]

There is so much more involved than the up front investment. We need to take all of the pieces - pedigree, quality of conformation and movement, temperament, prospective talent, and THE MARKET - into account.

Thank you for putting it so bluntly. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been asked to go look at this or that young horse by a client. I hate to, because I know that on balance, they are going to be priced quite sentimentally, based on the investment the breeder has made rather than the factors above. It seems that most American breeders can’t bring themselves to admit that a horse is only of average talent until it can no longer be denied when the horse falls short of having what it takes once it is under saddle and goes to the competition arena…

The fact is, there is a huge market for “up and going” horses that can either win in its respective disciplines under an amateur rider, or reach the upper echelons of the sport with an elite rider. If a horse is not able to do either of these, it will pretty much not be saleable, except as a pleasure horse. By the time this is evident, the investment in the horse is HUGE.

Originally Posted by pwynnnorman:

Oh, nonsense, diamondgirl. You are only seeing what you want to see.

<<Originally Posted by diamondgirl:
I consider those grade horses. Again, you are comparing apples to oranges.
With the cost of board, training, farrier and vet, I wouldn’t take one of those for free. I believe the OP was referring to fancy WB’s bred for dressage competition.

And here is the crux, diamondgirl! With quality right in front of your eyes at a reasonable price, you don’t think it’s worth it without all the fancy trappings! But many buyers are looking for the quality and don’t care about the trappings-they are the ones keeping the prices for weanlings and youngsters without enough milage/schooling to “tell about talent” rather low, compared to what I’ve personally been asked to pay by breeders hell-bent on making me appreciate their investment.

Been there, tried it, doesn’t work for me–my customers (all of whom are working professionals and paying board) need a horse for NOW. As shallow as that might seem, they simply couldn’t afford a horse at all if any of them had the time in their lives (no job IOW) to wait for a young one to grow up.

one is Teddy who I could have sold for a huge sum but chose to basically give away to the sport of eventing (I’d love it if someone asked me what I mean by that)

I would love to hear what you mean by that–I have a feeling that if more breeders were of this mind, we WOULD see buyers flocking to American farms for their next “big” horse–but only so long as they felt were getting value for their money.

[county]

STF, just wondering " exactly " who it is you feel is getting upset. So far I’ve only seen one person use the word " rant " and that was you. I may not understand the word " rant " but where I come from it means the person using it is upset.

[pwynnnorman]

Ok, I’ll tell you the gist. To keep Karen on Teddy, which basically keeps Teddy in this country, I basically agreed not only to make no profit off of him, but not even to recoup my expenses on him–not at all. And to date, for reasons I can’t get into, but have again to do with keeping the ride in this country (basically, I’m not doing some things that I could do), we’ve still sold less than half the shares. And in the interest of full disclosure and so people can know, once and for all, just what the sacrifice is for someone like me (I’m being brutally frank here, OK?), the shares cost only $10,000 each plus a $6,000 per YEAR maintenance fee. Karen is more comfortable with me keeping two shares so that I will always have more than others (we’ve had a limit of one share per shareholder), which means in order for me to pay for MY shares of his maintenance ($12,000 per year until he retires), I have to put every penny I get from syndicating him into the bank–NOT into my business. To date, I could change my mind at any minute and sell all of the shares I still own. You wanna guess where he would probably have ended up if at any time during this whole process I had just gone for the money? A whole year ago, after Jersey Fresh, I could have cashed out handsomely–and imagine how that windfall would have helped me develop his siblings to prove he is no freak? And still, here we are, double golds and all, and to keep him HERE and encourage supporters HERE, we’re not even raising the buy in fee! Yup, folks, I will “get” $100,000 for Teddy, minus Karen’s needs. Anyone want to guess what he’d appraise for? Oh, well, I’ve said it many times: I truly believe our sport needs Teddy and I’ve loved the sport since I walked under six-time Olympian eventer Mike Plumb’s photos hanging on the wall of my prep school. My goal is to breed ponies for eventing, first and foremost–which helps justify a little bit the sacrifice of not profiting from Teddy. Luckily, a talented eventer in today’s sport is almost always also a talented something else: hunter, jumper, dressage pony. So, business-wise, I lose on Teddy, but maybe in doing so up the ante for the US sportpony industry. It might play out for my business and for the market–and it might not. Worth a try, though. Indeed, the sport itself is worthy of the try, IMO.

[Auventera_Two]

@STF;2608506

Nope, totally different market as well as type of buyers. Plus the # of QH’s to WB’s really throw the ratio off when you do a supply and demand ratio.

I think that you are deliberately ignoring the fact that top dollar QHs are easily as expensive or more so than your “top quality warmbloods.” You seem to think the only horse in the world capable of being worth 10K + is a top quality warmblood. But believe me, you are dead wrong.

I just did a quick equine.com search for Quarter Horses priced $10,000 to $500,000 and got 67 pages worth ;). Most of those are top money earners, futurity horses, superior halter horses, performance point winners, etc. Some are barrel horses, some reiners, some hunters, etc.

What about some of the top Quarter Horse stud feees?

Peptoboonsmal - $15,000
Shining Spark - $12,000
Custom Crome - $6,000
Dulces Smart Lena - $4,000
Skeets Peppy - $3,500
WR This Cats Smart - $3,500

Your “apples to oranges” argument is absurd. Believe me girl, warmblood people are not the only people on earth who shell out tens of thousands for top quality horses. Your attitude is really off-putting. And I guess I find that surprising because typically I’ve always enjoyed your posts and ideas very much.

[diamondgirl]

All right. You guys with the grade ponies are way off topic. I’m fairly certain that the OP intended this to be a spinoff of the why would someone pay $10,000 for a weanling thread and the OP listed expenses involved in getting one of hers on the ground. You ARE comparing apples to oranges. They were discussing top quality dressage prospects and possibly importing for less and the OP was trying to make a point. You obviously have not followed the threads.

Your ponies ARE grade ponies and you sell to a completely different market.

This thread has become way off topic. Perhaps you should start your own thread?

[YankeeLawyer]

@pwynnnorman;2609459

. I realized they exist and it occurred to me to wonder WHY someone would indeed buy a broodmare for so much money, given sporthorse markets in this country and the LACK of a big equestrian (as in “sporthorse”) tradition here, unlike Europe. Our very culture makes it less likely (NO NO NO, hardly impossible) that you will find many buyers for your foal–and to find them and impress them sufficiently to buy, you are (like I said about advertising in the Pennysaver vs. the slick, upscale Ocala Style) going to have to spend a mint. So what is the motivation, the point, of a business producing a risky product for a tiny market? Is that a business? What was the name of that car they used in Back to The Future? The one with doors that opened like wings (and no one would buy)?

I have two mares and am about to buy a third. They are SPS/Elite mares with hard-to-obtain bloodlines, and they are very special individuals. For both mares I literally have multiple offers in utero for their foals, and next year’s crop will be their first foals. So, my experience, at least, has been that I have no problem finding buyers. And this is strictly by word-of-mouth; the prospective buyers know my mares. I do not advertise and do not even have a website.

Wynn, I am not sure why you seem to get defensive. Everyone here really admires and respects you and your program. I appreciate the different perspective you often offer, but sometimes it seems you think everyone else’s approach is ill-conceived or lacking in substance.

Regarding the car in Back to the Future – it was a Delorean.

[STF]

@YankeeLawyer;2609630

I have two mares and am about to buy a third. They are SPS/Elite mares with hard-to-obtain bloodlines, and they are very special individuals. For both mares I literally have multiple offers in utero for their foals, and next year’s crop will be their first foals. So, my experience, at least, has been that I have no problem finding buyers. And this is strictly by word-of-mouth; the prospective buyers know my mares. I do not advertise and do not even have a website.

Wynn, I am not sure why you seem to get defensive. Everyone here really admires and respects you and your program. I appreciate the different perspective you often offer, but sometimes it seems you think everyone else’s approach is ill-conceived or lacking in substance.

Regarding the car in Back to the Future – it was a Delorean.

Dont waste, your breath… they dont get it. :sigh:

[Ridge_Runner]

@pwynnnorman;2609459

[Oh, say! Anyone remember Yancey Farms? Know her history? What she concluded and why she’s doing what she’s doing now? STF, you need to look that up.]

Yup…Yancey farms are selling Kiger Mustangs! GASP the HORROR of it! :lol::lol::lol: I heard she’s doing quite well with them also. More power to her!

http://yancey-farms.com/horse.htm

[STF]

The part that several of you keep ignoring is that there are several top breeders in North America who stock sell as foals or EVEN IN UTERO before its born. And yes, for 10K or over.
Granted these foals are out of awesome bred mares from many generations of top quality/proven tested stallions and SPS/Elite mares, and sired by the “who of who” of stallions.
My point is and always has been, as I have stated over and over and over and over and over again, is that quality does sell and bring the money deserved for the well bred, correct prospects.
So, when you have someone come in and question, or BELITTLE that a breeder CAN get that amount for a horse, or you have someone come in and look at one of these foals who are superior quality and think they can offer 5K for it, its a little frustrating due to many buyers lack of knowledge.

[Pronzini]

@diamondgirl;2609610

All right. You guys with the grade ponies are way off topic. I’m fairly certain that the OP intended this to be a spinoff of the why would someone pay $10,000 for a weanling thread and the OP listed expenses involved in getting one of hers on the ground. You ARE comparing apples to oranges. They were discussing top quality dressage prospects and possibly importing for less and the OP was trying to make a point. You obviously have not followed the threads.

While I guess technically you are correct, the thread migrating into a far more interesting discussion about how people price their babies and what kind of market is out there for babies and that’s not breed specific or even discipline specific necessarily. I don’t think most people are arguing that a good warmblood isn’t worth $10K plus as a weanling. You know what–a good TB is worth 10 times that…so what. What is driving the discussion as I see it is whether the money you have into the horse should factor into the price and in fact should mandate the price and that’s the position that the OP appears to be taking.

Personally I don’t think it matters if we are talking about warmbloods, QHs, TBs or sport ponies. The production costs generally reflect what those horses can be expected to be worth if you produce a good one that the market wants. But just because you spent $10K doesn’t make the baby worth $10K.

[STF]

Sure, STF/DownYonder, if you go out and buy a $20,000-$30,000 broodmare and breed her to a top stallion, I sure hope you can sell the baby for at LEAST $10K because otherwise you are one crazy person!

The part you dont see, is they do sell for that and over that. Many Amercans even buy foals in Europe for that amount and have them imported, adding on more expense. Quality does sell. As I said before, two yrs ago it was all I could do to find a top bred yearling out of elite blood, because THEY WERE ALL SOLD! And gasp/OMG, I would have paid 10-12K for it!! OMG, silly me!

And if you can AFFORD to go out there and buy those broodmares, yup, you are soooooo right: you and I are apples and oranges. You and 95% of everyone here, I suspect.

Dont make this ugly and personal on our account, just because we prefer a different type horse than some. That is not fair to many people that are here and do that. It does not make them bad people becuase they want a certain type.

So welcome to our reality. MOST of us can’t afford to buy it. We have to make it. We have to start with what we have and then improve our programs over time. And we can’t afford to ignore a huge portion (the very biggest, in fact) of an industry – a far, far, far bigger portion that your “apples”, for sure: people who don’t give a rats patootie who the creature’s parents are if it does the job.

This was not about you or anyone in general, not sure why you are taking it so personal, but you should stop.

You can also, as I said before, afford to ignore facts in order to make your points. While I’m actually looking forward to proving that, when it comes to international level competition, Teddy is no freak, you’ve managed to ignore–in every place where it exists, not just on this BB–the fact that my breeding program has managed to produce a fair number of quite decent winners – and in more than one sport, too. Or didn’t you see any of that? Or maybe you have some threshold of accomplishment that will finally convince you that maybe, just maybe, there’s more to results than just luck?

And we are all very happy for you!

Funny thing is, I was actually thinking about the expensive broodmare issue before I read that post of yours, STF. I realized they exist and it occurred to me to wonder WHY someone would indeed buy a broodmare for so much money, given sporthorse markets in this country and the LACK of a big equestrian (as in “sporthorse”) tradition here, unlike Europe.

Because there ARE a lot of breeders who are trying to better the quality here and breed the best to the best. Do you realize that future stallion prospects cant come out of “just an ol mare” that there are regulations on them? Take Swedish for instance, a stallion MUST come from a pedigree of fully approved/proven stallion on top and the mare line must contain at least 4 generations of approved sires. Its called quality control and one of the reasons why Europe can and does produce better horses each year than we do.

Our very culture makes it less likely (NO NO NO, hardly impossible) that you will find many buyers for your foal-

sigh, if you would take your blinders and anti warmblood idea out and look around, you would see that a lot of top breeders sell their foals, in utero or as foals without any problems and with very little advertising.

and to find them and impress them sufficiently to buy, you are (like I said about advertising in the Pennysaver vs. the slick, upscale Ocala Style) going to have to spend a mint. So what is the motivation, the point, of a business producing a risky product for a tiny market? Is that a business? What was the name of that car they used in Back to The Future? The one with doors that opened like wings (and no one would buy)?

Being that our horses do sell, which seems to be an odd concept to you to understand as we have repeated it over and over… Im not sure how you get off on preaching the above. I have no want to, to do like you and give all my personal data on a world wide message BB, but we are not doing bad on our choices.

Anyway, I’m not in business, according to you, because I spend a little in an effort to make a lot, while you are because you spend a lot to make a little?

Nobody said that, YOU say that. This was not about you or your breeding program or ponies. You dont understand that!!! IT WAS NOT ABOUT YOU OR WHAT YOU DO. It was about breeding and selling “those horrible type, over priced ones, that dont sell”… NOT YOU!

[Oh, say! Anyone remember Yancey Farms? Know her history? What she concluded and why she’s doing what she’s doing now? STF, you need to look that up.]

JY is a smart business woman. I know known her for years. Her choices are not my concern, but as a fellow breeder, I dont judge her. Her Kigers are her passion and that is her choice, as her choice is also to breed some of her top mares in North American to some of the best stallion that are out there. But, you missed that point, a LONG time ago. PS - her babies sell too!

[STF]

But just because you spent $10K doesn’t make the baby worth $10K.

Im starting to think we have some learning disabilities on the BB!

This was not the point!! The point was that the quality ones DO sell for that amount and do BRING those prices or over.

[STF]

@Auventera Two;2609571

I think that you are deliberately ignoring the fact that top dollar QHs are easily as expensive or more so than your “top quality warmbloods.” You seem to think the only horse in the world capable of being worth 10K + is a top quality warmblood. But believe me, you are dead wrong.

I just did a quick equine.com search for Quarter Horses priced $10,000 to $500,000 and got 67 pages worth ;). Most of those are top money earners, futurity horses, superior halter horses, performance point winners, etc. Some are barrel horses, some reiners, some hunters, etc.

What about some of the top Quarter Horse stud feees?

Peptoboonsmal - $15,000
Shining Spark - $12,000
Custom Crome - $6,000
Dulces Smart Lena - $4,000
Skeets Peppy - $3,500
WR This Cats Smart - $3,500

Your “apples to oranges” argument is absurd. Believe me girl, warmblood people are not the only people on earth who shell out tens of thousands for top quality horses. Your attitude is really off-putting. And I guess I find that surprising because typically I’ve always enjoyed your posts and ideas very much.

Again, you have missed the point. This post was why warmblood foals of excellent quality go for what they do. And for those who are bitching about it, they could go and just do it themself, if they think they can do it cheaper.

[Pronzini]

@STF;2609684

Im starting to think we have some learning disabilities on the BB!

This was not the point!! The point was that the quality ones DO sell for that amount and do BRING those prices or over.

Then what was YOUR point originally about production costs unless it was to imply that you need to get that money back out. Buyers don’t care about your production costs and frankly shouldn’t.