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THIS IS WHY!! THIS IS WHY!!! *rant*

Sport Horse Breeding
#341

![](t was an example for all of those who think breeders are ripping the buyers off with prices on their young stock. Go look at the other thread that was going on before this one. Read the second post down that says -

Aug. 5, 2007, 02:42 AM
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Schoolmaster
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Most dont make money, they do it because they LOVE it and love the match making, the foaling, the new foal smells, the velvet coats and the whole ordeal. As sick as it seems, there is a huge swell of pride everytime a breeder foals a baby from their matchmaking combo.
Each of you should look up the breeder of your current horses and send them a Thank You card for the lovely horses you have, because they surely dont do it for the money.

www.spindletopfarm.net
Home of Puerto D’Azur - 1998 100 Day Test Champion
Friskt vågat, hälften vunnet :winkgrin:

My problem is with someone saying “look how much this foal cost me to get on the ground - that is why he is priced the way he is” which is what your OP said, whether you meant it that way or not. :wink:

I could not have been saying that since I dont have anything that young priced over 10K! :wink:

#342

I went to equine.com and asked for a list of any warmbloods $9K and under. Interesting what came up and where they are.

Then I refined my list to only those in California, same pricing.

Very enlightening.

#343

Well is she out of Fohrwind or by Frohwind?

Can’t figure out what you mean by she will mare to large body

#344

Opps, will go fix that! :lol:

Edited to say, Thank you for letting me know! :smiley:

#345

[QUOTE=DownYonder;2608238]
Growing up, I was always told that an unregistered horse is considered a grade horse.[/QUOTE]

When I think grade, I think of a horse that no one knows the lineage of.

#346

There are a lot, but Im looking foals out of SPS or Elite, or eligible elite fillies with a really strong bloodline on top and bottom.

#347

[QUOTE=Pronzini;2605560]
You can make real money but you can lose real money too. It is not unheard of to sell a horse for $10,000 that you have a six figure fee into. The stallion notorious for that is Awesome Again. Check out last year’s returns on a $125,000 fee:

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/stallion-directory/stallion.aspx?stallion_no=1439425

Out of 20 yearlings sold, 1 sold for less than $5000, 5 sold for less than $10,000, and 10 more sold for less than the stud fee. And you better believe the other production costs are as high or steeper.

Just keeping it real :)[/QUOTE]

I was going to chime in on this too. I started out breeding racehorses, and you can go broke even faster with them.
One problem with breeding racehorses is that fashion plays such a part. If you are breeding to sell, you are gambling that the horse you are breeding to is fashionable/desirable 2 yrs down the line when you have a yearling to sell. It can work in reverse though too, and we pray for those moments: Your nice mare with youngsters still to race may come up with a big winner in the interim, or the modestly priced young stallion you bred to might suddenly become hot if he sires a big winner… or not.
If you are breeding at the highest end, where the mare costs are the highest, and the stud fees are the highest, with the most reknowned and reliable stallions (ie AP Indy) you have a bit more ‘insurance’ - but even so, that foal could get hurt, get a bump…
You can certainly make money, but you can sure lose it too. :wink:
When I was breeding racehorses, my rule of thumb was to never spend more on a mare or stud fee than I could afford to lose.

#348

[QUOTE=diamondgirl;2609610]
All right. You guys with the grade ponies are way off topic. I’m fairly certain that the OP intended this to be a spinoff of the why would someone pay $10,000 for a weanling thread and the OP listed expenses involved in getting one of hers on the ground. You ARE comparing apples to oranges. They were discussing top quality dressage prospects and possibly importing for less and the OP was trying to make a point. You obviously have not followed the threads.

Your ponies ARE grade ponies and you sell to a completely different market.

This thread has become way off topic. Perhaps you should start your own thread?[/QUOTE]

Ummmmm, weren’t YOU the one who first mentioned “grade ponies”? :rolleyes:

#349

Thanks, LaNet!

sm, we use our TB mares differently in our breeding program than our WB mares. Our TB mares have been excellent producers for us for the hunter market. Our focus with our WB mares are towards the jumper market especially at the international level.

#350

When people say there are warmbloods for less than $5k, or $9k, it is important to look at the whole pedigree, the age and the region.

Actually, before someone breeds a mare for a sales foal, I’d recommend looking at the sales forums.

People who have been doing it a long time can sell off their own web sites.

#351

Try doing ths search on equinedotcom.

Ask for all warmbloods, 6 months old or younger, and those are the only filters.

You’d be surprised at how many of them aren’t draft crosses, aren’t PMU foals, and are under 10k. I’d guess 75% of the “real” wbs offered aren’t at that price point.

#352

Come on!!! You mean my draft cross weanling isn’t worth $100,000 ?!?!?!?

I could have SWORN the breeder said I’d get a TON of money for him. :winkgrin:

[B]Reality is… a horse is worth what the buyer is willing to pay.

[/B]

#353

I think some of you folks are missing the whole point the OP was trying to make. This thread was prompted by another thread in which a poster stated that she would go to Europe to buy a young horse before she would spend $10,000 on a youngster here in North America. Bear in mind that she was talking about QUALITY REGISTERED EURO-STYLE WARMBLOODS with a pedigree full of proven performance horses that had been BRED FOR THE SPORT FOR GENERATIONS. Several people tried to point out to her the cost of raising those types of foals here – which led to THIS thread.

Again, the original topic had to do with REGISTERED EURO-STYLE WARMBLOOD foals with top quality pedigrees. It had NOTHING to do with crossbred eventing ponies (even those that win gold medals at the PanAm games), or Spanish, Colonial, or Kiger Mustangs, or Thoroshires, or Morgarons, or Friesaloosas, etc.

Don’t get me wrong, I think it is wonderful that some of you are having success with your non-warmblood breeding programs. I think it is great that you are happy with your “breed” of choice. I also think it is great that you can get a foal to 16 months of age for under $5000. Hooray for you!! But will people like the OP of the original thread – who is looking for a quality registered warmblood – come knocking on your door? I doubt it, because you aren’t breeding the type of horse she is looking for. And the people that ARE breeding that type of horse are spending a lot of money to acquire the same type of mares used in Europe, and breeding to the same type of stallions used in Europe (even the exact same stallions, in many cases). THAT is one reason why their costs are higher – they have more money invested in their mares – many of who are either Elite or State Premium mares, or daughters of such mares - and they are spending more money on stud fees and repro work than those of you who use your own stallion, or who breed to inexpensive, unapproved, maybe even unregistered stallions for a nominal fee.

So once again, I would postulate that some of you are comparing apples to oranges. They are two different completely different types of breeding programs. Is one better than the other? Depends on who you ask. Those who are looking for a horse to be nationally or internationally competitive in dressage and show jumping are probably going to be more inclined to shop for a registered Euro-style warmblood with a solid performance pedigree. Those who just want a horse to have fun with on a local or regional level, or who are looking for a hunter or eventer or pony club mount might be inclined to shop with someone like Wynn or Daydream Believer, or some of the others on this thread who are breeding something other than registered Euro-style warmbloods.

I do agree that most buyers don’t care how much a breeder’s costs are, they only care about whether they think the horse they are looking at is a good value. Only the buyer can decide what a horse is worth to them. But if someone wants a registered Euro-style warmblood with a solid performance pedigree on a par with the type of horse produced in Germany or Holland - especially one out of premium and performance tested mares - they are going to have to do some hard looking to find a good one in N.A. priced under $10K. I’m not saying they aren’t out there, but there probably aren’t a ton of them to choose from, and most of those are weanlings or yearlings. Once the horse is under saddle or close to it (or close to breeding age, for fillies), the price is going to go up.

And for those who mentioned Judy Yancey’s Kiger breeding program - remember that she also still breeds WARMBLOODS - and sells some of those foals for very good $$$$ - plus she has a thriving business distributing semen from WARMBLOOD stallions. I’m guessing that the reason she stays in warmbloods is because there is a very good demand for those products. :smiley:

#354

Somewhere in this long meandering thread, the OP said she would look in NA with a budget of $10-$15K to find what she wants rather than spend the significant pop in additional fees to import a youngster.

The decline of the dollar vs the Euroe is not to be underestimated.

I always studied the USDF year end listings. I’d look at the highest scores at each level for each registry, Euro-based and American.

The Euro-pedigreed horses could be found at the FEI levels, and there would be many competing for the highest of honors.

The breeds not bred specifically for dressage might have a handful in the upper levels and very few, if any, showing at Grand Prix. And the scores were not in the same ballpark.

Yes, there are exceptions.

The typical amateur rider doesn’t care about the talent to compete at Grand Prix.

But the OP who asked the original question was looking for upper level talent.

Hence these threads on what justifies $10K for a weanling.

If your chosen sport is upper level dressage or show jumping, chances are good you want a WB or WB cross. If you are a lower level rider, like I was, the choices open up quite a bit. One of my horses was a QH/Morgan trained to 3rd level.

#355

THANK YOU!!! Someone actually understood! Sporthorse South summed it up very well and there is nothing more to add.

#356

Post 263

#357

Which means what, exactly Freedom? Someone got very lucky, was in the right place at the right time, and had the knowledge to recognize a very good value. Do horses like this, go for this kind of money every day? You know the answer to that. You’re just trying to make a “point” weak as it may be.

I’ve gotten very lucky myself on a couple of occasions. Right place, right time, right situation, checkbook in hand, and viola! Lucky Kate. That’s not the norm. But deals do exist.

Someone got very lucky off of ME too – just two weeks ago. Right place, right time, right deal when I needed the cash. No advertising. Word of mouth. Done deal. Does that mean if someone else came up to me today they would get the same deal? No. Got what I needed, can move forward now, thanks.

Anyone that wants a great deal on a good young horse need only plug themselves in, visit the trainers, walk the shedrows at the shows, be part of the network, be ready, be nimble, don’t have a timeline and be open to new ideas. Insinuate yourself into the community. Don’t shop online.

Your example, ergo your argument, is spurious.

#358

Don’t want to be unduly hostile, but all of those of you who are so proud of yourselves for breeding European WB sporthorses with great sires and dams leading to very high quality and high priced foals, please give some real examples of your national (GP), FEI and international successes. I’ll bet nobody but Pwynn can say “I’ve bred a double gold Pan Am medallist”. I’ve even bet nobody here can say “I’ve bred a Team horse.”

Do you place your your young horses with the top trainers? Are you willing to sacrifice the way Pwynn has to follow her vision? I’ve been looking at the IJF and IHF database, and American breds do not shine. There are some, but not many. FEI level horses from America don’t exist that I can find.

Seems to me that until youall can actually produce winners to match your supposed emphasis on quality, you’re just riding a warmblood breeding bubble that is like llamas or emus–selling breeding stock to other breeders based on paper. No, wait, that was the Arab bubble back when.

When you can point to successes that can beat the Europeans at their own game, then you can set high prices based on high quality.

#359

Uh, Viney - the original OP in the thread that started all this is not looking for an eventing pony. She is looking for an UPPER LEVEL DRESSAGE PROSPECT ON A PAR WITH WHAT IS BEING BRED IN EUROPE. PWynn’s breeding program doesn’t even come close to providing what the OP wants. It has nothing to do with who has produced a Pan Am horse and who hasn’t. It has to do with who has what the OP wants, and the type of breeders in North America who are most likely to have what she wants are more than likely going to have a LOT of money invested in very good REGISTERED WARMBLOOD mares.

No one is dissing PWynn - she has had super success with Teddy, and I think everyone here applauds her for that. When she produces a major international contender in DRESSAGE, maybe the OP (and other dressage shoppers) will start beating a path to her door. :smiley:

#360

Thank you for saying it. I was going to ask how many had produced “quality Euro Warmbloods” here that have actually won something anywhere close to what Wynn’s “grade” pony has done. Not one of them…yet they look down on her ponies and call them “good amateur horses or good local or regional horses.” Yeh right! I think they are jealous personally. :lol:

I myself would not trade even one of my Colonial Spanish horses for any one of your expensive horses…I am perfectly happy with them and the kind of people who buy them from me.

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